Christianity and Cults Throughout History

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 minutes ago, Joline said:

In looking at this doctrine from a biblical point I see some disagreement with Scripture.

Judaism’s Five Primary

 Sacramental Signs

There are five expressions of holiness in this world that I will focus upon here: (1) Israel as holy people; (2) the Sabbath (and the holidays) as holy time; (3) the land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem as holy place; (4) the Torah as holy word; and (5) the

mitzvoth  as holy deeds. All five of these realities exist independently of the Temple, and their status in Jewish life was unchanged

 by the Temple’s  destruction. Jews have generally approached these five realities in a manner closely resembling the way Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and liturgically-oriented Protestants have treated Christian sacraments.

By God’s gracious decision and action, each of the five bears an intrinsic holiness that sets it apart from other members of its earthly class (i.e., peoples, times, places, words, deeds) . The increasing influence of Jewish mystical thought and practice in the medieval  period accentuated this sacramental approach. While Jews of a rationalistic bent have criticized such sacramentalism, their position was a minority viewpoint until the modern era, and remains a minority viewpoint within the world of traditional Judaism.

11

The author speaks of these five sacraments as being intrinsically holy, therefore remain so apart from the temple and it's ministers.

I do believe this notion to be against what Christ says.

 

Mt 23:17  Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
 

Mt 23:19  Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

And therefore contrary to what the law says concerning the feasts............

Lev 37  These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
 

Jesus fulfilled Mosaic Law.  We are now under the Law of Grace.  That doesn't mean of course "once saved, always saved".  Am I understanding you correctly?  I think I am.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

 Jesus fulfilled Mosaic Law.  We are now under the Law of Grace.  That doesn't mean of course "once saved, always saved".  Am I understanding you correctly?  I think I am.

I am asking about this teaching within Messianic Judaism which is posted above. To judge or discern it, Just like all those being looked at in this thread. Does it have elements of a cult.

Sacraments, Mediation of priest, keeping Jewish mitzvoth and attaining sacramental holiness thereby?

Is it biblical?

Christ says the temple sanctifies the gold, and the altar sanctifies the gift.

Are the feasts of Mosaic law intrinsically holy as a sacrament independent of the temple ministers. ?

Does Moses teach this?

The feasts days are holy convocations to bring gifts unto the temple alter. And all of them upon their day (ie each offering having a festal day designated to it)

So I think perhaps this teaching listens neither to Christ nor Moses.

What do you think?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

2 minutes ago, Joline said:

I am asking about this teaching. Just like all those being looked at in this thread. Does it have elements of a cult.

Sacraments, Mediation of priest, attaining holiness thereby?

Is it biblical?

Christ says the temple sanctifies the gold, and the altar sanctifies the gift.

Are the feasts of Mosaic law intrinsically holy?

Does Moses teach this?

The feasts days are holy convocations to bring gifts unto the temple alter. And all of them upon their day (ie each offering having a day festal day designated)

So I think perhaps this teaching listens neither to Christ nor Moses.

What do you think?

My uncle was heavily involved in the group Jews for Jesus and my aunt, his wife was Jewish (different aunt then I posted about earlier).  They never lost sight of the grace of God through Jesus, but my uncle (although not Jewish himself) made certain my aunt's Jewish heritage was never lost or dismissed.  I believe when these holidays were created for the Jewish people, there was no time limit on how long they would be celebrated.  Mosaic Law is another matter as Jesus fulfilled Mosaic Law and we all now live under the law of grace.

It is said that the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sacrifices will once again take place in the End Times.  These will be sacrifices by the Jewish people who don't recognize the sacrifice of Jesus once and for all fulfilling Mosaic Law.  My understanding these will not be Messianic Jews.

We could start a whole thread on sacraments, as every denomination has their own interpretation.  Personally, I was bapized as an infant in the RCC.  I left the RCC around age 20 and was a seeker for 10 years or so.  Through a series of events, I became a born-again Christian and I felt the need to be water baptized again, and I was.  I don't believe in the RCC teaching on communion and consider it along NT lines.  I don't believe I need a priest for confession but I do need to confess my sins to my Father in Heaven and ask for His forgiveness in Jesus name.  Others may disagree with me here.  I am an introvert and the few times I've been more outgoing, my words have been twisted and used against me.  God knows my heart.  I don't need another human between God and myself, just my Messiah Jesus.

Lastly, we cannot obtain holiness.  We are saved by grace through faith.  God has set aside good works for us to do so that we cannot even brag about our works.  (SObG paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8-10)  Only God can impute righteousness to us, we can't earn it.  Our righteousness is in Jesus.

[Guest]

Just now, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

My uncle was heavily involved in the group Jews for Jesus and my aunt, his wife was Jewish (different aunt then I posted about earlier).  They never lost sight of the grace of God through Jesus, but my uncle (although not Jewish himself) made certain my aunt's Jewish heritage was never lost or dismissed.  I believe when these holidays were created for the Jewish people, there was no time limit on how long they would be celebrated.  Mosaic Law is another matter as Jesus fulfilled Mosaic Law and we all now live under the law of grace.

It is said that the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sacrifices will once again take place in the End Times.  These will be sacrifices by the Jewish people who don't recognize the sacrifice of Jesus once and for all fulfilling Mosaic Law.  My understanding these will not be Messianic Jews.

We could start a whole thread on sacraments, as every denomination has their own interpretation.  Personally, I was bapized as an infant in the RCC.  I left the RCC around age 20 and was a seeker for 10 years or so.  Through a series of events, I became a born-again Christian and I felt the need to be water baptized again, and I was.  I don't believe in the RCC teaching on communion and consider it along NT lines.  I don't believe I need a priest for confession but I do need to confess my sins to my Father in Heaven and ask for His forgiveness in Jesus name.  Others may disagree with me here.  I am an introvert and the few times I've been more outgoing, my words have been twisted and used against me.  God knows my heart.  I don't need another human between God and myself, just my Messiah Jesus.

Lastly, we cannot obtain holiness.  We are saved by grace through faith.  God has set aside good works for us to do so that we cannot even brag about our works.  (SObG paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8-10)  Only God can impute righteousness to us, we can't earn it.  Our righteousness is in Jesus.

Excuse me... Yes I know that. but this thread is to designate certain characteristics of a cult.

I am asking about the doctrine above concerning cults.

Does the teaching of sacramental aspects within Messianic Judaism as posted above fit the characters of a cult?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings SavedOne,,,,

   I'm really happy that you are the OP & started this Thread,I'm not worried about going Off-Topic for a moment,,,,,lol Well,not really so "off",,,,I am truly grateful for your response & it is just unbelievable how much I can relate too,it is a real Blessing to know that someone has gone through the same things,,,even when you shared about your mom & dad,,,my mom also "dabbled" in the occult(long long story) & was not very stable(to say the least),,,,,only when my dad was dying(also cancer!!!!) He sufferedmuch but we talked about Jesus everyday for the last 2 months of his life ,he accepted Jesus as His Lord & Savior......I had to remind him of who it was that taught me Gods Word as a little girl,,,,,,,he said,are you sure I shouldn't pray to Mary,,,,,but when I was (dying) with color rectal cancer only months before my dad was diagnosed we talked about it & I said if you are going to pray for me then pray with me to Jesus,the ONE that does hear us & can Heal us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Glory to God,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm sorry about your folks,I do hope that in their last moments they Received Christ & the Grace of God,,,,,,,,,,,truly,we don't know,,,,,we HOPE

Quote

The biggest problem I have with the RCC is their lack of emphasis on grace, instead of works.                               posted by SavedOne

  Me too,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& the reason Im brought all this up is (well,you know)the "brainwashing",,,,,,,,,,,,,works are so emphasized that many many folks are lead to believe they will get to Heaven because they either suffered much,good deeds,go to church,say "hail marys" or whatever,,,it is fightening,RustyAngel can tell you about a fellow she knows who WILL NOT read the Bible,says he was taught not to as a kid & he knows he is a "good person" who loves GOD,,,,,,,,,sheesh!!! I think this may be considered a "cult" after all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& we both agree & I do hope everyone understands we are not saying ALL catholics are doomed,,,,,,just as any other denomination,there are Saved ones wherever they may be,,,,,,,,Thank God,that He sees us as individuals & that He comes to us PERSONALLY,;,,,,,,

Now,how much danger is the person in that is following a cult or being taught a false doctrine? Is it not up to each individual to seek the Truth for themselves,as we have? Does God not Reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him,is He not evident in all His Creation,,,,,hmmmm? I think so ,,,I also think that we are His from before we are born & then we have a choice to be reconciled back to Him & REceive His Grace,,,,,,by our Faith in Knowing WHO Jesus is & knowing we NEED our Savior for Forgiveness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I believe that most people,like you & I ,,,,could have had a life more abundant & a lot less heartache & "fire" had we not had those false teachers to cause help(cause) us to stumble along the way,,,,

  Anyway,just my thoughts & thank you for giving me the opportunity to get a little side tracked just for a moment,,,,,,,Great Thread BTW,,,,,I do hope it will encourage people to search out Gods Truth for themselves through His unadulterated Word ,,,to God be the Glory!

                                                                                  With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Guest]

1 minute ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings SavedOne,,,,

   I'm really happy that you are the OP & started this Thread,I'm not worried about going Off-Topic for a moment,,,,,lol Well,not really so "off",,,,I am truly grateful for your response & it is just unbelievable how much I can relate too,it is a real Blessing to know that someone has gone through the same things,,,even when you shared about your mom & dad,,,my mom also "dabbled" in the occult(long long story) & was not very stable(to say the least),,,,,only when my dad was dying(also cancer!!!!) He sufferedmuch but we talked about Jesus everyday for the last 2 months of his life ,he accepted Jesus as His Lord & Savior......I had to remind him of who it was that taught me Gods Word as a little girl,,,,,,,he said,are you sure I shouldn't pray to Mary,,,,,but when I was (dying) with color rectal cancer only months before my dad was diagnosed we talked about it & I said if you are going to pray for me then pray with me to Jesus,the ONE that does hear us & can Heal us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Glory to God,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm sorry about your folks,I do hope that in their last moments they Received Christ & the Grace of God,,,,,,,,,,,truly,we don't know,,,,,we HOPE

  Me too,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& the reason Im brought all this up is (well,you know)the "brainwashing",,,,,,,,,,,,,works are so emphasized that many many folks are lead to believe they will get to Heaven because they either suffered much,good deeds,go to church,say "hail marys" or whatever,,,it is fightening,RustyAngel can tell you about a fellow she knows who WILL NOT read the Bible,says he was taught not to as a kid & he knows he is a "good person" who loves GOD,,,,,,,,,sheesh!!! I think this may be considered a "cult" after all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& we both agree & I do hope everyone understands we are not saying ALL catholics are doomed,,,,,,just as any other denomination,there are Saved ones wherever they may be,,,,,,,,Thank God,that He sees us as individuals & that He comes to us PERSONALLY,;,,,,,,

Now,how much danger is the person in that is following a cult or being taught a false doctrine? Is it not up to each individual to seek the Truth for themselves,as we have? Does God not Reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him,is He not evident in all His Creation,,,,,hmmmm? I think so ,,,I also think that we are His from before we are born & then we have a choice to be reconciled back to Him & REceive His Grace,,,,,,by our Faith in Knowing WHO Jesus is & knowing we NEED our Savior for Forgiveness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I believe that most people,like you & I ,,,,could have had a life more abundant & a lot less heartache & "fire" had we not had those false teachers to cause help(cause) us to stumble along the way,,,,

  Anyway,just my thoughts & thank you for giving me the opportunity to get a little side tracked just for a moment,,,,,,,Great Thread BTW,,,,,I do hope it will encourage people to search out Gods Truth for themselves through His unadulterated Word ,,,to God be the Glory!

                                                                                  With love-in Christ,Kwik

Yes. But there are other religions that dispense grace by works, sacraments, mitzvoth.....

 

[Ezra]

19 minutes ago, Joline said:

Yes. But there are other religions that dispense grace by works, sacraments, mitzvoth.....

Other religions may imagine that they dispense grace, but that is simply a false belief. Grace is offered and flows directly from God to the soul and spirit, in response to faith in Christ and His finished work.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ezra said:

Other religions may imagine that they dispense grace, but that is simply a false belief. Grace is offered and flows directly from God to the soul and spirit, in response to faith in Christ and His finished work.

So is what Mark Kinzer teaches "cultic"?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

9 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings SavedOne,,,,

   I'm really happy that you are the OP & started this Thread,I'm not worried about going Off-Topic for a moment,,,,,lol Well,not really so "off",,,,I am truly grateful for your response & it is just unbelievable how much I can relate too,it is a real Blessing to know that someone has gone through the same things,,,even when you shared about your mom & dad,,,my mom also "dabbled" in the occult(long long story) & was not very stable(to say the least),,,,,only when my dad was dying(also cancer!!!!) He sufferedmuch but we talked about Jesus everyday for the last 2 months of his life ,he accepted Jesus as His Lord & Savior......I had to remind him of who it was that taught me Gods Word as a little girl,,,,,,,he said,are you sure I shouldn't pray to Mary,,,,,but when I was (dying) with color rectal cancer only months before my dad was diagnosed we talked about it & I said if you are going to pray for me then pray with me to Jesus,the ONE that does hear us & can Heal us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Glory to God,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm sorry about your folks,I do hope that in their last moments they Received Christ & the Grace of God,,,,,,,,,,,truly,we don't know,,,,,we HOPE

  Me too,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& the reason Im brought all this up is (well,you know)the "brainwashing",,,,,,,,,,,,,works are so emphasized that many many folks are lead to believe they will get to Heaven because they either suffered much,good deeds,go to church,say "hail marys" or whatever,,,it is fightening,RustyAngel can tell you about a fellow she knows who WILL NOT read the Bible,says he was taught not to as a kid & he knows he is a "good person" who loves GOD,,,,,,,,,sheesh!!! I think this may be considered a "cult" after all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& we both agree & I do hope everyone understands we are not saying ALL catholics are doomed,,,,,,just as any other denomination,there are Saved ones wherever they may be,,,,,,,,Thank God,that He sees us as individuals & that He comes to us PERSONALLY,;,,,,,,

Now,how much danger is the person in that is following a cult or being taught a false doctrine? Is it not up to each individual to seek the Truth for themselves,as we have? Does God not Reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him,is He not evident in all His Creation,,,,,hmmmm? I think so ,,,I also think that we are His from before we are born & then we have a choice to be reconciled back to Him & REceive His Grace,,,,,,by our Faith in Knowing WHO Jesus is & knowing we NEED our Savior for Forgiveness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I believe that most people,like you & I ,,,,could have had a life more abundant & a lot less heartache & "fire" had we not had those false teachers to cause help(cause) us to stumble along the way,,,,

  Anyway,just my thoughts & thank you for giving me the opportunity to get a little side tracked just for a moment,,,,,,,Great Thread BTW,,,,,I do hope it will encourage people to search out Gods Truth for themselves through His unadulterated Word ,,,to God be the Glory!

                                                                                  With love-in Christ,Kwik

We have a lot in common!  My wife got to spend some time with my father and shared the gospel with him before he passed away.  He was under hospice care and I was working two states away.  She volunteered to help my mother and I'd be there to help on weekends.  So whether he was saved or not, I do not know.  My mother is another story.  As I said, she was two states away.  I called her weekly and talked to her about nothing in particular.  She then said what do you think of "our" new pope.  I replied back that he wasn't my pope and the conversation ended soon after that.  There were no raised voices or anything like that.  Several days later I heard from my RC sister that she was so upset she had a stroke and was in the hospital.  I saw her once more and she could only groan.  She died shortly after my visit.  Her last words according to my sister were condemning me for leaving the RCC and my sister blamed me for stressing her out so she had a stroke.  She was 91 or 92 at the time.  After my father's death, my mother wrote me out of her will leaving a high six+ figure inheritance to my sister and her atheist husband.  She kept that secret to her grave.  Her atheist husband was a piece of work though.  He told me after the funeral of my mother that some of us marry well and win, and some of marry badly and lose.  I told him I didn't know what he meant and left him without another word.  I spoke to my sister once after that.  It was a casual conversation.  It must be well over ten years now since we've spoken.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

47 minutes ago, Joline said:

Excuse me... Yes I know that. but this thread is to designate certain characteristics of a cult.

I am asking about the doctrine above concerning cults.

Does the teaching of sacramental aspects within Messianic Judaism as posted above fit the characters of a cult?

I'm not an expert on Messianic Judaism.  Can you expand a bit on sacraments within Messianic Judaism.  For example, are they necessary for salvation?  Are they contrary to NT teaching in some respect?  If we get to defining, anyone in a denomination could be considered to be in a cult which is NOT what Kwik and I are saying.