Chaos - True or False?

[post]

On 5/15/2016 at 10:59 PM, post said:

On 5/14/2016 at 5:25 PM, HAZARD said:

Even men today, building anything, would they build a car this way? design and make a complete smashed up, no wheels, no headlights, torn to shred's seats, a complete right-off, then do it right, rebuild it properly?

isn't your metaphor a bit off though? 
when we build a car, we don't start with torn up pieces of what-was-once-car. 

actually thinking some more about it -- your metaphor is what you're describing -- that God first created a universe and earth, then wrecked and reduced it to void & chaos , and then in Genesis 1:2 took the smashed up, torn to shreds, complete write-off, wreckage-of-titanic-brought-up-from-the-deep earth and then 'did it right,' 'rebuilding it properly.' 

isn't it? 

but our common perception is that out of nothing created the molecules and gasses and dust etc. that the universe was to be made from, which began in a sort of state that was to human understanding, subjectively 'disorganized & chaotic' but was actually intricately and delicately designed in perfect balance by the Lord, and by His marvelous methods took these and formed all the worlds and the stars. 
and then He took dust, and made man from it. a heap of apparently disorganized dust. which i would think was not so disorganized as it appeared!

in either case, we are starting from what humans would describe as a 'state of chaos' because in the traditional view, humans simply can't comprehend the enormously detailed and purposeful arrangement of the constituent parts of the universe in their first state, or in your view, because a perfect creation was subsequently utterly wrecked & trashed, then God took the smoldering heap and repaired it (presumably with OEM parts! haha). 



 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

43 minutes ago, post said:

actually thinking some more about it -- your metaphor is what you're describing -- that God first created a universe and earth, then wrecked and reduced it to void & chaos , and then in Genesis 1:2 took the smashed up, torn to shreds, complete write-off, wreckage-of-titanic-brought-up-from-the-deep earth and then 'did it right,' 'rebuilding it properly.' 

isn't it? 

but our common perception is that out of nothing created the molecules and gasses and dust etc. that the universe was to be made from, which began in a sort of state that was to human understanding, subjectively 'disorganized & chaotic' but was actually intricately and delicately designed in perfect balance by the Lord, and by His marvelous methods took these and formed all the worlds and the stars. 
and then He took dust, and made man from it. a heap of apparently disorganized dust. which i would think was not so disorganized as it appeared!

in either case, we are starting from what humans would describe as a 'state of chaos' because in the traditional view, humans simply can't comprehend the enormously detailed and purposeful arrangement of the constituent parts of the universe in their first state, or in your view, because a perfect creation was subsequently utterly wrecked & trashed, then God took the smoldering heap and repaired it (presumably with OEM parts! haha). 

The key question here is did this happen in the dateless past, or did it happen six thousand years ago on a Sunday?

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, post said:

actually thinking some more about it -- your metaphor is what you're describing -- that God first created a universe and earth, then wrecked and reduced it to void & chaos , and then in Genesis 1:2 took the smashed up, torn to shreds, complete write-off, wreckage-of-titanic-brought-up-from-the-deep earth and then 'did it right,' 'rebuilding it properly.' 

isn't it? 



 

 

No, God created a perfect Earth, then destroyed it and everything therein,  because of sin.\ and rebellion.

Moses’ teaching on the overthrow of the Pre-Adamite world.

In Gen 1:2 we have the fact that the Earth was in existence before the Spirit of God began to move, (brood) upon the face of the waters which covered the Earth. The conjunction “and” is used to connect about 200 separate acts of God in Gen. 1 and 2. These acts are all equally independent and important. Verse 2 is as independent of verse 1 as are all other separate acts of God in these two chapters. In verse 1 we have the original creation of the heavens and the Earth, and in verse 2, we have the original perfect Earth made chaos and flooded with water which destroyed all lifeon the Earth.

The word “was” in verse 2 is from the Hebrew bayah, which is a verb to become, not the verb to be. It is translated became 67 times (Gen. 2:7; 19:26; 20:12; 24:67; Ex. 4:3-4; Num. 12:10; ect.); becamest (1 Chron. 17:22; Ezek. 16:8) ; came and  came to pass 505 times (Gen. 4:3; 6:1, 4; 11:2, 5; etc.) become 66 times (Gen. 3:22; 18:18; 48:19; etc.) come (and come to pass 131 times (Gen. 4:14; 6:13; 18-20; 27:40 etc.); and many times be in the sense of become (Gen. 1:3, 6, 9, 14: 3:5; etc.).

The phrase without form is from the Hebrew tohu, which means waste, desolation, or confusion. It is translated wast (Deut. 32:10); without form (Gen.1:2, Jer.4:23); vain (Isa. 45:18; 1 Sam. 12:21); confusion Isa. 24:10; 34:11; 41:29); empty (Job 26:7); vanity (Isa. 40:17, 23; 44:9; 59:4); nothing (Job. 6:18; Isa. 40:17); and wilderness (Job 12:24; Ps. 107:40).

It can be seen from these passages what the word really means and what the condition of the Earth was in Gen. 1:2. God did not originally create the Earth in such a waste and ruined state. It is definitely stated in Isa. 45:18 that God did not create the Earth tohu (vain, or desolate), yet in Gen 1:2 the Earth was tohu. If the Earth was not originally created desolate, then it must have been created, inhabited, and later became desolate. Even the English verb “was” proves that it had to become desolate before it could be desolate.

The Hebrew word for void is bohu, which means empty, ruin or void. It is translated viod (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23) and emptiness (Isa. 34:11). The Hebrew phrase tohu va bohu (wast and ruin, or desolate and empty) describes the chaotic conditions of the Earth since “the beginning” and before the six days of the reconstruction of Gen. 1:3-2:25. God did not create the Earth a ruin or a wast. It became so because of sin.

We can read Gen. 1:1-2 literally thus:

“In the beginning [by periods, ages] God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth became wast and ruin [desolate and empty]; and darkness was upon the face of the waters.” In these verses we have the whole span of the creative ages taking in all the original creation of the heavens and the Earth and all things therein to the six days of restoration of the Earth to a habitable state. The original creations include the sun, moon, and stars.

In these two verses alone we have the facts that in the dateless past God created the heavens, including the sun, moon, and stars, and then the Earth; that the heavens, were created before the Earth;  the waters; and that the darkness were all created before the spirit began to brood over the waters; and that these things were already in existence before the first of the six days, proving that they were not created in any one of those days.

How long the Earth was a waste and a ruin or desolate and empty since its original habitation is not known. How long it was in existence and inhabited before it became desolate and empty is not known, but why and when it was cursed and became desolate and empty is known and clearly revealed in Scripture. In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1;2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

The fact that Moses by inspiration said that God told Adam, to multiply and replenish the Earth proves that there was a social system on the Earth before Adam, for he could not replenish something that had been plenished before. Some argue that the Hebrew word for replenish means fill and not refill, but this proves nothing. An examination of all the places where the word replenish is used disproves this. Suppose we make the word replenish mean plenish in Gen. 9:1; Isa. 2:6; 23:2; Jer. 31:25; Ezek. 26:2; 27:25, and note the results. Where the Hebrew word mala is translated fill, it does not mean that the thing referred to had never been filled before. For example, when Joseph commanded his bretheren to “fill their sacks,” does this mean that those sack had never been filled before? They had no doubt been filled many times. See Gen. 42:25; 44:1; 1 Kings 18:33; Hag. 2:7 etc. To say, “Fill that glass with water” does not prove that ithad never been filled before, but to say, “Refill that glass with water” proves that it had been filled before. When God said to Noah, “be fruitfull and multiply, and replenish the earth” Gen. 9:1, it is clear that the Earth had been plenished before, so why not believe that God meant the same thing when He said it to Adam? The same Hebrew statement is found in both passages (Gen. 1;28; 9:1),and it is translated exactly the same in English, so would it be wrong to believe that it means the same thing? If the Earth had been plenished before Adam, then it was overthrown by judgment before the six days, as is shown in Gen.1;2.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Ahhh,RAND Corp guys,,,,,,,,,,,,excellent read!!!!!!   HA,good stuff

If it wasn't for the guys at Rand Corp., we might not have personal computing and the Internet.  John Nash died in a car accident just a year ago on May 23rd.  While not a paranoid schizophrenic like Nash, John von Neumann was also a true character.  He was a bad driver but nevertheless had a 1954 Ferrari.  He also did his best thinking in a chaotic environment, and irked Albert Einstein because he liked to play German march music at full blast.  He also rode down the Grand Canyon wearing a three piece suit while riding a mule.

[Kan]

16 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

In true Chaos Theory, there is an underlying order to the Chaos.  Small changes such as a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil may cause an early winter in New England.  It is truly a detailed analysis of the cause and effect relationship that is beyond the mathematical models to predict.  But God knows.  God knows the beginning to the end.  He knows the number of hairs on my head, an ever decreasing number, but nevertheless, He knows.  He knows not just now, but at all times before and after our now.  To Man, we see chaos: to God, He sees the natural order of things and how our free will interacts with all causal relationships.  So in that sense, Chaos is not possible from God's standpoint.  What appears to be chaos is order we just don't understand.

I like that - in a nutshell - bold type. 

So God can create a true chaos - one that has no pattern, no order or regularity, infinite randomness, etc, in other words perfect chaos.

The question is, did God create such a perfect chaos in the beginning, from which order came?

What would cause such a chaos and for what purpose?

 

[Kan]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

No, God created a perfect Earth, then destroyed it and everything therein,  because of sin.\ and rebellion.

Moses’ teaching on the overthrow of the Pre-Adamite world.

In Gen 1:2 we have the fact that the Earth was in existence before the Spirit of God began to move, (brood) upon the face of the waters which covered the Earth. The conjunction “and” is used to connect ............e that God meant the same thing when He said it to Adam? The same Hebrew statement is found in both passages (Gen. 1;28; 9:1),and it is translated exactly the same in English, so would it be wrong to believe that it means the same thing? If the Earth had been plenished before Adam, then it was overthrown by judgment before the six days, as is shown in Gen.1;2.

Hazard, you have a thread on this already don't you?

Is chaos necessary in your thoughts about beginnings and creation etc. or is it just a result of sin?

[Kan]

Whatever God creates is always good, what good would there be in a chaotic situation?

If God can create chaos, what is it essentially?

Is there another name or description for such a thing? 

You can use the scientific meaning for chaos if you want to answer this, because it now becomes appropriate. We have already established that chaos is relative, God does not know it and we have it. 

 

[Kan]

16 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

What do you mean Brother? Kan?     Love<Kwik

Is a truly chaotic condition possible?

Yes, God has said "is there anything too hard for me to do?" He can create the perfect chaos.

Now the question is, - what is a perfect chaos and what purpose could it provide in creation?

Remember what God can create a chaos that would be infinitely impossible for us to fathom, but would He do that? If so why? What could it serve?

Is there another name we could put to this condition? Can a perfect chaos be a condition at all?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

5 hours ago, Kan said:

I like that - in a nutshell - bold type. 

So God can create a true chaos - one that has no pattern, no order or regularity, infinite randomness, etc, in other words perfect chaos.

The question is, did God create such a perfect chaos in the beginning, from which order came?

What would cause such a chaos and for what purpose?

One only has to look at DNA to know that Intelligent Design is a fact.  Just like Junk DNA is not really junk.  We just don't have the intelligence to understand it yet.

In the Bible, chaos usually reflects judgment.  Look at the tower of Babel.  God confused the tongues of mankind to prevent them from too quickly learning to work together without gaining the wisdom that can only come from age.  At least, that's my opinion.

Chaos doesn't come from nature.  Everything in the universe operates under a causal relationship.  We may not understand the cause, but it's there.  Lest one accuses me of reverting back to my previous Calvinist beliefs, mankind has free will.  God knows our choices before we make them, but the choices are ours and we have to answer for them.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Kan,,,,,

   I cannot relate what I am pondering to science,not at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,actually I should probably think about it more but hey,I'll throw it out here anyway guys,,,,,,I'm thinking about the outer darkness ,hell & inevitably "the lake of fire",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,won't that be total "chaos"? And God is the Creator,,,,,,,,,,,,He will make it,right?

   I know,I'm speculating,lol