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here is what the Bible actually says about "prayer language" :

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(Roans 8:26) 

compare this with what you have may have heard preached :rolleyes:
shall we walk after the Spirit, or after men? 




 

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"groanings which cannot be uttered" 

what i understand from this, is that if it can be uttered, it is not the prayer of the Spirit . . . 

what do you think? 

and what other sections of scripture, if any, can you point to on this subject? 

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The Spirit Helps Us in Our Weakness, Part 1

Message by John Piper

 

Scripture: Romans 8:25–27    Topic: The Trinity

 

Series: Romans: The Greatest Letter Ever Written

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Christianity is the only religion in the world that affirms that there is one, and only one, true God, and that there are three divine persons in the one God: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. The church did not come to embrace the doctrine of the Trinity because there is a sentence in the Bible that says: "there is one God existing as three persons equal in divine essence, but distinct in personhood." There is no sentence like that in the Bible. Rather the reason the church has embraced this doctrine is because the Bible unwaveringly speaks of one true God, not three Gods, and yet reveals the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as God, and as distinct persons.

If this perplexes you, keep in mind: We are in no position as creatures to dictate to our Creator what he may or should be like. God is absolute reality. He was there before anything else was, and he did not come into being, but always was. Therefore nobody made him the way he is, and there is no reason he is the way he is. He simply is. That is his name: "I Am Who I Am" (Exodus 3:14). Our role is not to say what can and can't be in God, but to learn who he is and who we are, and to shape our lives according to his reality – his will. We submit to the way he is. He doesn't submit to the way we are or the way we think he should be.

One of the places where the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, is revealed most fully is in Romans 8. We are focusing on his work today in verses 26-27, but it would be good for us to see what has been revealed so far about the work of the person of the Holy Spirit. What emerges in this chapter is that the Spirit is not just some force or power of God the Father, but a person who works along with the Father and in relation to the Father.

Here's an overview of what the Spirit does for us. And one of my goals in mentioning these things is that you might love the Spirit. Jesus said that the first and greatest commandment is to love God with all that you are. The Spirit is God. Therefore, you should love the Spirit – as a person. Not as a force or power, but as a person who thinks about you and has emotions for you and works for you – indeed, as we will see in a moment, prays for you.

According to verse 2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets you free from the law of sin and death.

According to verse 4 the Spirit helps you fulfill the just requirement of the law.

According to verse 6 the Spirit give life and peace.

According to verse 11 God will raise you from the dead by the Spirit who dwells in you.

According to verse 13 the Spirit helps you put to death the deeds of the body.

According to verse 14 the sons of God are led by the Spirit.

According to verses 15-16 the Spirit bears witness in us that we are the children of God and so gives us assurance of our salvation.

According to verse 23 the Holy Spirit is the foretaste and guarantee of our final redemption.

And now in verses 26-27 the Spirit helps us when we don't know how to pray as we should. That's what we want to look at this morning.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

The word "likewise" at the beginning of verse 26 means that Paul has been giving help to us in what he has been saying and now he wants to give us some more help by explaining that the Spirit himself helps us. The way he has been helping us is by telling us why our sufferings are worth enduring for Christ. All of verses 18-25 give reasons for why we should hold fast to our hope in the midst of futility and decay and groaning and death. Now Paul says, "likewise" – in the same way – the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness.

So I want to ask three questions that I think this text answers. 1) What does the Holy Spirit pray for us? 2) How does the Holy Spirit pray for us? 3) Why does the Holy Spirit pray for us? We will answer the first question today and the other two next week.

1. WHAT DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY FOR US?

First of all, notice that this is, in fact, the way that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, namely, by praying for us. "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

Now what does the Spirit ask for when he intercedes for us? There are three ways the text points to an answer for this question: 1) It says the Spirit asks for things that we don't know we should ask for. Verse 26: "We do not know how to pray for what we ought." 2) It says the Spirit asks for things that we don't know to ask for because of our weakness. Verse 26: "The Spirit helps us in our weakness." 3) It says the Spirit asks for things that are in accord with the will of God. Verse 27b: "The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

Now think about what those three facts imply. When it says the Spirit prays for things we don't know to pray for, that rules out a lot of things. We certainly know we are to pray for holiness and faith and hope and joy and all the fruits of the Spirit and every other unqualified commandment in the Bible. There is absolutely no doubt that we are to pray for whatever God commands us to do. The revealed will of God is not in question. If God has plainly told us in the Bible to pursue something – like love or faith or righteousness or holiness or courage – then we know we are to pray for it.

WHAT DON'T WE KNOW WHAT TO PRAY FOR?

But this text says that the Spirit is helping us by praying for us when we don'tknow what to pray for. Now when is that? What sorts of things don't we know what to pray for? What are we not sure about? Here's where the word "weakness" in verse 26 becomes important, and the context of what has gone before.

Paul says, "Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness." The uncertainty about what we are to pray is because of our "weakness." Now the word "weakness" in the New Testament can be weakness owing to our limited human nature (Romans 6:19), or weakness owing to sickness (Luke 5:15) or weakness owing to adversity (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). But consider the context of verses 18-25, especially verse 23, "We groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." The context is the groaning of decay and futility and misery in the world. It's the groaning of bodies that are not yet redeemed. In verse 10 Paul said the body is as good as dead. In verse 11 he said that the Spirit will one day raise our mortal bodies from the dead. But for now, the body groans under the curse of the fall (v. 20).

So in verse 18-25 Paul is helping the groaning saints by holding out hope to them as they wait for the redemption of their bodies. Then in verse 26 he says, "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness." I have been helping you in your weakness with the promises of a great future. Now likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. What weakness? The one I have been talking about – the sickness and futility and frustration and decay and misery of life on the way to heaven.

So what is it that we don't know what to pray for in this weakness? I think the answer is: we don't know the secret will of God about our sicknesses and our hardships? We don't know whether we should pray for healing or for strength to endure. Of course, both are right and it's not wrong to pray for either. But we long to pray with great faith, and we groan that we are not sure what God's way will be with this sickness or this loss or this imprisonment. We just don't know.

We can see some examples of this in Paul's life. Consider his thorn in the flesh in 2 Corinthians 12. He asked three times that it be removed. And finally Jesus revealed to him that his will was not to take it away. Surely, that experience would leave Paul wondering with every sickness and pain and hardship and imprisonment what God's will was: Healing or not? Deliverance or not?

And when he was in prison in Rome he seemed – at least for a time – to be unsure what to pray for – life and ministry, or death with courage. He said inPhilippians 1:22-24, "If I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."

Now this is painfully relevant to many in this church now. And it will become increasingly relevant as the price of being a Christian and a missionary increases in the years to come. Not only are there many who are sick, but there are some now and there will be many over the next years who are in danger somewhere in the world, and wonder, "How should we pray?" Should we pray for a safe escape? Or should we resolve to stay and pray for protection? Or should we stay and pray for courage to suffer and even die?

WHICH RISKS?

People ask me about this almost every time I speak about suffering and martyrdom and risk-taking. God calls us to take risks. That is plain from Scripture (Luke 21:16). But which risks? When do we risk our lives and the lives of our families and when do we not?

John Bunyan, the pastor who wrote Pilgrim's Progress over 300 years ago stayed in prison for 12 years for conscience sake. He could have gotten out if he had agreed not to preach the gospel. He had a wife and four small children, one of whom was blind. Was this an easy decision? Stay in prison for conscience sake, or get out and take care of your family?

And today, you will all face similar decisions, though not all as dangerous. Should I take this risk or shouldn't I? Should I endanger myself, my family, my business, my church, etc? Bunyan wrote a book called Advice to Sufferers. In it he captured the perplexity and uncertainty that we face in danger or in front of a risk for Christ's sake. He asks, "May we try to escape" from the danger? And he answers:

Thou mayest do in this as it is in thy heart. If it is in thy heart to fly, fly: if it be in thy heart to stand, stand. Anything but a denial of the truth. He that flies, has warrant to do so; he that stands, has warrant to do so. Yea, the same man may both fly and stand, as the call and working of God with his heart may be. Moses fled (Ex. 2:15); Moses stood (Heb 11:27). David fled (1 Sam. 19:12); David stood (1 Sam. 24:8). Jeremiah fled (Jer. 37:11-12); Jeremiah stood (Jer. 38:17). Christ withdrew himself (Luke 19:10); Christ stood (John 18:1-8). Paul fled (2 Cor. 11:33); Paul stood (Act 20:22-23). . . . There are few rules in this case. The man himself is best able to judge concerning his present strength, and what weight this or that argument has upon his heart to stand or fly. . . Do not fly out of a slavish fear, but rather because flying is an ordinance of God, opening a door for the escape of some, which door is opened by God's providence, and the escape countenanced by God's Word (Matt. 10:23).

Paul's point is that when you groan with Christ-exalting desires but uncertainty how Christ might best be magnified, the Spirit prays for you and brings it to pass.

How shall we be encouraged by this? How is this a help, as Paul says it is: "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness." He helps us. Are you helped in this way?

FIVE ENCOURAGEMENTS FROM THIS TEXT

Let me close by suggesting at least five ways you can be encouraged by this text if you trust Christ and groan in your heart for his name to be exalted in your life.

1. Be encouraged that you are not expected to know the will of God in every respect. Yes his revealed will for you is always faith and hope and love and purity. But whether to trust him to deliver from sickness or hardship or prison, or whether to trust him to help you die, you do not always know. And this text says it's OK not to know. There is one who knows. And he is praying the way one ought to pray who knows. Don't add to your burdens the worry that you don't know all the will of God.

2. Be encouraged that in your perplexity and groaning you are not being watched, you are being understood. God is searching your heart, and he is finding in your holy groanings a meaning deeper than words – the meaning of the Spirit himself. More on that next week.

3. Be encouraged that God's work for you is not limited to what you can understand and express with words. Be glad that God is able to do exceedingly above all that you ask or think (Ephesians 3:20). Your thinking, especially in times of stress and groaning, is not the limit of God's acting. And be glad that there is a peace that passes all human understanding (Philippians 4:7). God is not limited by your limited mind.

4. Be encouraged that in your weakness and sickness and loss and hardship and danger the Spirit of God is praying for you and not against you. In verse 31 we will hear Paul exult: "If God is for us, who is against us?" And here we see part of that great "for us" in verse 26. The Spirit intercedes FOR us, not against us. Be encouraged that as you cling to Christ and groan for his exaltation in your uncertainty and pain, the Spirit is for you and not against you.

5. Finally, be encouraged that God the Father hears the prayer of the Spirit. This prayer is for you. And it is always heard! Always answered, God does not reject the prayers of God.

John Piper (@JohnPiper) is founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary. For 33 years, he served as pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is author of more than 50 books, including A Peculiar Glory.

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Just now, post said:

what other sections of scripture, if any, can you point to on this subject? 


the verse i put is not what one normally ever hears mentioned when this subject comes up -- especially not by proponents of the practice. 
the one that comes to mind that is usually pointed to, is this: 


If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
(1 Corinthians 13:1) 

and apologists for "prayer languages" usually take a line of argument that assumes Paul is talking about praying (though he says 'speaking') and that the unintelligible things a practitioner says in prayer are exactly the language of angels. 

the trouble i see here, is that first i believe Paul is speaking hyperbolically - making an extreme statement for emphasis that doesn't necessarily have any basis in reality - and second that he is speaking hyperbolically in order to emphasize by contrast how great and of utmost importance love is. love is the subject of this dialogue, not prayer, and not angelic tongues. furthermore, the love he is speaking of is not love for ones self, or self indulgent love, so the proposition that a person 'loves' to speak and pray in unknown tongues doesn't really fall in line with the overarching message of this section of the epistle. 

thoughts? am i wrong? 

i didn't grow up pentecostal, nor did i grow up in a church that was anti-pentecostal in any way. i was introduced to such things much later in my life & walk; i may be speaking from a position of handicapping ignorance here. 

thanks for any thoughts or corrections :)

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Post, Am I right to believe to are either Mormon or JW?

I believe you mentioned that in another thread?

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the other verse that i usually hear in this context is the following:

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:2) 

and this is usually the "aha!" verse -- "see! no one understands them! it is an unknown tongue." 
but Paul is speaking of anyone who speaks in a tongue -- not a special group who speak in a specifically non-human language. so the question in my mind now is, is "speaking in tongues" supposed to be always an unnatural, non-earthly language? but the example at pentecost was that people understood them - which doesn't seem to jive with that idea, and gives me pause about just what Paul is talking about here, because he seems to be addressing tongues in a very general way, not a specific 'type' of un-human language. 

there is also that there is no mention of "prayer" here at all ((nor in chapter 13 of the same epistle)) -- it is speaking, and being contrasted with prophesying ((so that others can be edified)). 
so the connection to "prayer language" is tenuous at best, it seems. 

in fact, i don't know of anywhere in the scripture where prayer is made in a way that the person praying does not understand what they are saying, or that those hearing don't understand -- other than Romans 8:26, which seems to be expressly not only un-vocalized, but expressly impossible to be vocalized. and here it is the Spirit doing the praying -- not the person. i think it is perfectly safe to assume that the Spirit understands what He is interceding with! 

the whole notion of praying in a way that others cannot understand seems contrary to the way that Jesus taught to pray, and how the scripture generally presents the topic of prayer -- it is not for others to hear; it is directed towards the "
Father, who sees what is done in secret" ((Matthew 6:6)) and God alone. prayer that is otherwise directed ((for the sake of others to hear)) seems to me to be better matched with the prayer of the pharisees, who loved to pray publicly with great flowing words so everyone could hear them. at least as far as how Jesus teaches us. 

so this is not about prayer in the first place, and making it about prayer may lead to what would be a very wrong attitude about prayer. 


i'm not any expert on this -- looking for your thoughts and understanding, and sort of hashing out in text what my thoughts have been. 
please correct me where i am off-track. 


thanks :)

 

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17 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Post, Am I right to believe to are either Mormon or JW?

I believe you mentioned that in another thread?


i believe your reading comprehension was not at its best when you read that lol
or maybe now it is your memory that could improve 
^_^

i said that i am the witness of Jehovah, because i witness of Christ, and Christ witnesses of the Father -- and Christ said that whoever accepts the one He sends accepts Him, and whoever accepts Him accepts the One who sent Him. 

in the JW thread. 

i'm not "JW" -- i was being clever ((i hoped)) in saying that true followers of Christ are actually better described by their namesake than JW's are. 

dunno where you get mormon from though. actually, God has been sending me mormons for the last 2 years, and i hope i was used in part to convert at least one of them to actual Christianity :)
i was not invited back to their church after the one time i went . . . probably something to do with stumping the 'elders' leading the study group by pointing out many specific contradictions in 1 Nephi with Leviticus, Numbers & Jeremiah. that's my guess, anyway - the missionaries never said. 

in short -- no, not at all, no! 

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43 minutes ago, post said:

i didn't grow up pentecostal, nor did i grow up in a church that was anti-pentecostal in any way. i was introduced to such things much later in my life & walk; i may be speaking from a position of handicapping ignorance here. 

thanks for any thoughts or corrections :)

Neither was I in a Pentecostal church, but in 1987 I was given a prayer tongue by force......   didn't believe in tongues and never even thought about wanting it.......    still not real crazy about it.  My wife was about to do something really serious in the middle of the night with intruders in our back yard.   I was awaken at about 2:00 AM babbling in some language I had never heard and what was terrifying was that I could not stop.   Lasted for about three minutes during which I was physically thrown out of bed flat on the floor with my nose pressed firmly in the carpet.....  I finally switched to english after a few minutes and had time to wake up and understand that my family was in serious trouble.....   I kept praying for my family for nearly 20 minutes and then was instructed to call home.  I was let up from the floor and when I called home discovered that my wife had gotten up awaken by large noises coming from our back yard.....   during the time I was babbling she was putting her shoes on and intending to go out back to see what the noise was all about.....    she finally realized how dumb that was and just closed the door and locked it.  That is when the tongues stopped and the prayers kept up and not five minutes after the noises stopped I called her on the phone to discover what had happened.......   i was filled with relief before I called her and knew they were safe.

Since that time I have been awakened occasionally to pray for someone who seemed to be in trouble for the urgency was the same....   occasionally I would later find friends or internet acquaintances were having problems with demonic activity bothering them.....  usually late at night.

 

It is something I didn't really ask for and I would say that it is not enjoyable to be awakened in the middle of the night in a state of panic talking when you do not know what you are saying but generally understand that it's someone in trouble.

Scriptural or not, it's reality...

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On 5/14/2016 at 7:21 PM, post said:

thoughts? am i wrong? 

Paul was indeed using hyperbole when referring to "tongues of men and angels".  What he was saying is that even if the language I was speaking was as supernatural and exalted as the language of angels, but did not have love, it would mean nothing.

It is possible that angels communicate in a heavenly language among themselves, but we do not find any reference to any special angelic language in Scripture. 

To understand how angels spoke we need to go to the book of Revelation (among others).  Even though it is recorded in Greek, John -- being Hebrew -- was hearing Hebrew.  And even when John was not being addressed directly, the language he heard would have been Hebrew, not Greek. So what is the tongue of angels in Heaven?  Here is a sample:

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Rev 4:8).

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Blessings post,,,,,

    I have been going to a pentacostal church for any many years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,only one thing is,I do not subscribe to their Statement of Faith as far as "tongues" being the evidence that we are indwelled or "baptized",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I agree with you & with Ezra and that is where I stand,I never say that some do not receive the "gift" today ,,,I know that is not the context of this discussion but I thought I might add that

    You are talking about us,prayer,talking between  the Believer & the Lord and I agree with everything,as I said,that you & Ezra are both saying,,,,,,,,,,,,I do believe that the "groanings" that CANNOT be uttered(or spoken) are just that,when I am praying "in Spirit" I know the difference,,,,,,I cannot even describe it because it is as if part of me is in another realm,,,,,& it has nothing to do with my voice box but all to do with my heart (the Heart of Jesus),,,can't explain it

                                      Glory to God                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

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