When Nations turn against Israel

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

That example of shiloh357's question is an example of Biblical ignorance folks. He asked me if I have a problem with the Jews, when the matter I've been showing by Apostle Paul from Romans 11 is how God is going to SAVE all the Jews once the "fulness of the Gentiles" comes in. That's when Paul pointing to God removing the blindness He put upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles!

So if anything, I am showing how Apostle Paul taught GOD HAS NOT FORGOTTEN THE MAJORITY OF JEWS, EVEN THOUGH THE MAJORITY OF THEM STILL REJECT JESUS CHRIST TODAY!

So what shiloh357 has done is to FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF ANTI-SEMITISM, when I am actually declared how God is going to SAVE THE JEWS TOO!

It is ignorant brethren like shiloh357 that is showing anti-semitism, because he is showing he DOES NOT BELIEVE THE JEWS CAN BE SAVED! He obviously is against... the Jew's salvation for some reason! And that is... anti-semitism.

 

 

It's not a false accusation.  You cannot hate the Jews yet claim to love the King of the Jews.   Your theology is grossly anti-Semitic, hateful to the core.  Anyone who would twist the Scriptures to say that God would actually bar someone from salvation is a false teacher.

[Omegaman 3.0]

7 hours ago, Salty said:

You can tell the owner then, to just wipe ALL of my posts, because I certainly wouldn't want to send anyone to hell for showing them God's Word as written!

Not that I am the "owner" but I do have the ability to wipe away all of your posts. It is tempting. As it is, what I will do, is ban you from this thread, you have repeatedly called into question, the salvation of many of the posters in this thread, that is not you place.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Refrain from you judgmental outbursts in the future and try to say on topic. Other posters are not the topic.

[n2thelight]

Romans 11:4 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

Though this is history, in that God had reserved for Himself seven thousand men that would never bow to the image of Baal, Elijah did not know those seven thousand people that had stayed faithful to Him. This quotation is recorded in I Kings 19:10-18.

Romans 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

The remnant was the remnant that God chose, such as Paul and the disciples and others, from generation to generation, to bring the message and truth of the Gospel of Christ. Elijah himself and John the Baptist in the spirit of Elijah were part of that remnant as they were teaching God's Word. They were passing God's Word down through the generations of years to deliver it in the final generation, to the election of God.

Anyone that sees the truth of God's overall plan and picture are part of the remnant, and this doesn't refer to salvation, because there will be millions that have the salvation that God offers to all through repentance and believing in His Son. But we are talking here about the remnant here that delivers God's Word. These people have eyes to see and ears to hear and know the truth of God's plan.

The remnant is the person that will carry the truth, and perhaps even die and return to the Father before the end generation has been completed at the seventh trumpet. But we have come to that end generation now whereby many people are hearing the Word and do know and believe that God's Word is true. They have faith enough to make God's Word part of their lives. Christianity to them is a reality, and not just a religion.

This is not something that God just gave to the remnant; but it was something that was earned in the great conflict of the first earth age when Satan rebelled against God. Remember the election is from the first earth age, and the reason for the election is that these souls were justified then, as recorded in Ephesians 1:4, 5, and also in Romans 8.

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

To understand this verse, you must understand the difference between grace and works. Remember also that subject of these first six verses is "God's purpose for the remnant", which are those people that God had chosen in the first earth age because of their stand against Satan at Satan's rebellion, as well as the others that God would use for the negative part of God's plan.

Back in the ninth chapter we discussed the potter and those lumps of clay that the potter had chosen. The potter chose those lumps of clay to form them into the vessels that they would be. It was fair that God chose Pharaoh to play the role that he played towards the children of Israel. It was also fair that God would harden his mind. God caused the hardening of Pharaoh's mind to fulfill the promises that God made in his Word to Abraham.

The question then comes, if God hardened Pharaoh's mind and God caused Pharaoh to do what he did, will God have the right to judge Pharaoh for the hardening that He caused to happen? The answer is, of course God won't. But God will give Pharaoh the opportunity to repent, and he probably did when Christ freed the captives, as it is written in I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

The point is that God is always fair. God had to have a remnant that could bring the truth of His Word to pass. This remnant has lived from generation to generation down through the years, and they have been hearing and teaching those manuscripts that the prophets wrote down. By the work of the Holy Spirit we are allowed to see how God used certain people to fulfill His Word: To make all prophecies come to pass exactly as they were written. There are no accidents in the completion of those prophecies.

Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

Israel is not the "election", for the "election" is within all races. They are the ones that made a stand in the first earth age. The "election" are the ones that have the eyes to see and the ears to hear and understand God's Word, while the rest were blinded. Those other's minds and hearts were hardened to the Scriptures, and the Word of God became foolishness to them. Yet, these elect are those "set aside ones" from Romans eight. They are the ones that were not deceived by Satan in the first earth age, nor will they be deceived in this earth age. In other Words these elect are the proven tested children of God. These elect are the ones that God can intercede in their lives, even without their asking Him for the help.

Why then were the others blinded to the Word, and harden their hearts?

Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear";" unto this day."

Paul is telling us that the reason that the rest of the world is blind to the truth, is because it written in the Scripture. It is for the elect to take the time to check it out. This word "slumber" in the Greek, would better be translated "stupor". In the Greek it is "Katanuxis". God placed the spirit of stupor on all those that are not part of the elect. They are not asleep but they are in a stupor, and they just don't know what is going on, and they will not in this earth age.

Down through all generations, even to this final generation, those eyes will not see, and their ears will not hear and understand the Word of God. Why? Because God told us that this would happen way back in Isaiah 29:10; "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered."

God even gave this prophesy to Moses in Deuteronomy 29:4; "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and hears to hear, unto this day."

The "heart to perceive", is the mind to understand. By the hardening of the heart of those that would not believe, God caused that whole generation of Moses day to die in the wilderness and not go into the promise land, because of their disbelief. The only ones to enter into the promised land were the young, and the two that did have faith in God's ability to give Israel the victory. Those two were Joshua and Caleb.

What God is telling us then in Romans 11:8, is that even when it looks like the whole population has sunk into this stupor, and hardness of heart; God as reserved His elect to Himself, and they will be protected and know the truth in their mind and not be deceived. This applies to every generation, to Moses time, Isaiah's generation, to Paul's age, and also to us in this final generation.

Just as Moses roamed the wilderness for an entire generation of forty years, and when the generation of the stupor died off; then all the youth that had matured, entered that promise land in victory. There is a generation that will spiritually die off, and fall to the point of this spiritual stupor. Then upon the arrival of the Antichrist [Satan] and his locust army of fallen angels, every last one to them will be deceived and worship the Antichrist in ignorance, thinking him to be the true Christ.

They will do this in their ignorant stupor, because they willingly listened to their false prophets, religious leaders and religious seers, as they spouted off their traditions of men. God's elect that He has set aside will not in that stupor, for they will know the Antichrist for who He is. The elect are prepared because God has opened their minds. God will give His elect a mind that will see what is going on before them, and hear the word and know the truth from deception. Upon the return of Jesus Christ they will be ready to enter the Millennium age as victors, and not in shame.

Romans 11:9 "And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them:"

This was written in Psalm 69:22; "Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap."

What is your table? The "table" is the place where you eat, and the famine for the end times is not for the lack of food, but for the Word of God. Amos 8:11; "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord."

If you are not real careful, that stumbling stone that we studied in Romans 9:33 that was Christ will be the stumbling stone for you in the end times. If you do not know the order of events that brings us to the time of the end, then that "table" or place that you feed from can lead you into worshipping the false messiah. The traditions taught in the church houses of today are waiting to hear the false messiah say, "I've come to fly you away." Their table is teaching them the traditions of men, placing them in a spiritual stupor.

Revelation 9:4 tells us that those without the "seal of God", which is the "knowledge of God's Word in their minds", are blinded and in the stupor; their table, or teaching will be their own trap.

https://www.theseason.org/romans/romans11.htm

[OldCoot]

On 8/26/2018 at 9:57 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What is the population of Israel today: year 2.018? seven, eight, sixteen millions??  But only and only 144.000 are elected to be saved, no more than these, by the Word of God.  Only and only these 144.000 are ALL Israel. The other are of their father, the Devil.

144,000 are selected for a specific purpose, but that doesn't mean that they are all that will be saved.  It could be the case, but doesn't seem to fit the overall scripture very well.

The Hebrews that remain at the end of the GT period, will go into the Millennial Kingdom to repopulate the earth.  Same for those that survive the GT and are non Hebrew.  But in the latter case, they will be judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrew people, as to whether they are worthy or not.  Matthew 25.

Yeshua Himself stated that He would not return until corporate, national Israel (both Judah and Israel) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and then petition for His return.  Yeshua in both Hosea and Matthew stated that.  Hosea 15 and Matthew 23.

And being of their father the devil, a bit of a stretch to suggest that applies to all Hebrews.  Yeshua specifically directed that to the leadership of Israel.  And it will be the leadership of Israel that petition for His return in the passages I just referenced.    Most Hebrews are as Paul stated...

Romans 10:1-2 (NKJV) 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by OldCoot
Spelling

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

I would tend to think that the fact they were sealed would indicate that they were saved:

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”  And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed." (Revelation 7:1-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Not trying to argue with you here OC, but being called "bond-servants" and "sealed" seems to speak that they were saved; what are your thoughts on that?

 

Read my post a little slower.  I stated that I believe the 144K are not the only ones saved during that time.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/3/2018 at 9:40 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

In my vision, the Word of God gives different interpretation, if compared with yours on this. Despising the figures and speaking exactly the meaning of them in the biblical text, Revelation 7:v.2 says that was given power to hurt the Jews and the Gentiles, as follow:
>>>Rev. 7:v2 - And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth (Jews) and the sea, (Gentile peoples);<<<
    
But in accord Scriptures (Rev.7:v.3),  the Jews and the Gentile peoples cannot be hurt, till the foreheads of God's servants be sealed, as follow:
Rev. 7:v.3 - 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

But Who are the servants of God among the inhabitants of the whole earth, Jews and Gentiles, which were sealed in their foreheads?  Rev. 7:v.4 reveals who are them, exclusively, saying:
>>>Rev.7:v.4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.<<<

Therefore, apart from these 144,000 God's servants, all others of Israel will be hurted and be damned in accord 2 Thessalonians 2:v.11-12 and Romans 2:5-16):
2The.2:v.11-12 - 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:   12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 
Romans 2:5-9&12:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
12 For as many as have sinned without law (the Gentiles)  shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jews) shall be Jdged by the law;

Shalom, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira.

I find a LOT of errors in your thinking, my brother. Let's start with an obvious one: You quoted with comments, "Rev. 7:v2 - And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth (Jews) and the sea, (Gentile peoples)," but this is an allegorical interpretation of that verse that DOES NOT HAVE biblical authentication! The "earth" is simply the "GROUND." The "sea" is simply the "WATER." Where do you get off calling the earth "the Jews?" or the sea "the Gentiles?!" There's no biblical authority to do this.

[Steve_S]

15 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, Retrobyter, you find not any errors in my interpretation, because there is not any error in my interpretation in Rev. 7:v.2.

Having said this, whoever is completely wrong is you interpreting the Holy Scriptures by the letter, then you are spiritually dead like many similar to you. You can see that you are a mere materialist in interpreting the Scriptures.

Removed from thread.

[iamlamad]

Since the 144,000 are sealed a very small amount of time after the rapture of the church (raptured just before the 6th seal) I think they were NOT saved at the time of the rapture, but the event of the rapture caused them to realize that Jesus was their Messiah, and they turned to believing in Him.

There are many people that believe they then became great evangelists, but really there is nothing in scripture at all about what they do. They are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments, then raptured to heaven to become the firstfruits of the Hebrews.

[OldCoot]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since the 144,000 are sealed a very small amount of time after the rapture of the church (raptured just before the 6th seal) I think they were NOT saved at the time of the rapture, but the event of the rapture caused them to realize that Jesus was their Messiah, and they turned to believing in Him.

There are many people that believe they then became great evangelists, but really there is nothing in scripture at all about what they do. They are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments, then raptured to heaven to become the firstfruits of the Hebrews.

I have had to rethink my analysis of the events, thanks to being pointed to Isaiah 28.   

I still think that the righteous are removed prior to the 1st seal, but now think that there is a interlude between the removal and the 6th seal.  The 24 Elders being in heaven before the seals are opened supports that.  And King David set the precedent for the priests to be divided into 24 divisions and Peter tells us that we are a royal (kings) priesthood.  And Paul lets us know that the believers will not be witnesses to the false messiah / antichrist being revealed, which is the 1st seal.

The key was when I did a further study of the 4th seal.  Specifically, death and hades.  Also notice, they do not kill 1/4 of the earth's population, they gain control of 1/4 of the earth's population, then go on a killing spree that is the 5th seal.   I am convinced that death and hades are not abstract terms, but in fact terms that describe real entities.  In this case, the false prophet and the false ecumenical religious system.

Isaiah 28:14-15 shows that in the latter days, Israel would make a covenant/pact with death and sheol (hades) to avoid the scourge that is going on.  I believe that scourge is the 5th seal martyrs.   Isaiah 28:18 says that covenant/pact will be annulled which conforms to Daniel 9:27.

We have to be somewhat reasonable.  It takes time to get things in place.  The 1st thru 5th seals do not happen overnight.  It takes time for the false messiah to consolidate his power and for the false prophet and false religious system to get up and running in control of things.   

The 7 years / Daniel's 70th week / final tribulation period starts when a covenant/pact is confirmed as per Daniel 9:27.  The operative word is "confirmed" not "made".  The pact is already in place with the 4th seal according to Isaiah 28:14-15.  But it is not confirmed by the false messiah / antichrist yet.  I think that is what transpires at the 6th seal and kicks off the 7 years.  

And therefore, the cosmic events that Yeshua said come before those days still lines up with this analysis. 

At the 6th seal onward things get rolling.  The two witnesses start sticking the spur into the unbelievers and the 144K are separated out. The latter could have started before the 6th seal.  And at the midpoint of the 7 years, the false messiah / antichrist nullifies the covenant as per Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18.   Then the Great Tribulation proper gets into full swing.

I am sure some tweaking will be needed on this analysis, I just recently was shown this newer way to approach the seals.

I will disagree a little on the 144K being the firstfruits of the Hebrews.  I am convinced that already was the case in Matthew 27 with the resurrection of the OT saints.  In neither case, the OT saints or the 144K, does the text specifically state they were caught up to Heaven.  So in the OT saints case, we have to rely on the testimony of those who knew the eyewitnesses of the account.  And they say that the OT saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father by Yeshua.

Edited October 1, 2018 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I have had to rethink my analysis of the events, thanks to being pointed to Isaiah 28.   

I still think that the righteous are removed prior to the 1st seal, but now think that there is a interlude between the removal and the 6th seal.  The 24 Elders being in heaven before the seals are opened supports that.  And King David set the precedent for the priests to be divided into 24 divisions and Peter tells us that we are a royal (kings) priesthood.  And Paul lets us know that the believers will not be witnesses to the false messiah / antichrist being revealed, which is the 1st seal.

The key was when I did a further study of the 4th seal.  Specifically, death and hades.  Also notice, they do not kill 1/4 of the earth's population, they gain control of 1/4 of the earth's population, then go on a killing spree that is the 5th seal.   I am convinced that death and hades are not abstract terms, but in fact terms that describe real entities.  In this case, the false prophet and the false ecumenical religious system.

Isaiah 28:14-15 shows that in the latter days, Israel would make a covenant/pact with death and sheol (hades) to avoid the scourge that is going on.  I believe that scourge is the 5th seal martyrs.   Isaiah 28:18 says that covenant/pact will be annulled which conforms to Daniel 9:27.

We have to be somewhat reasonable.  It takes time to get things in place.  The 1st thru 5th seals do not happen overnight.  It takes time for the false messiah to consolidate his power and for the false prophet and false religious system to get up and running in control of things.   

The 7 years / Daniel's 70th week / final tribulation period starts when a covenant/pact is confirmed as per Daniel 9:27.  The operative word is "confirmed" not "made".  The pact is already in place with the 4th seal according to Isaiah 28:14-15.  But it is not confirmed by the false messiah / antichrist yet.  I think that is what transpires at the 6th seal and kicks off the 7 years.  

And therefore, the cosmic events that Yeshua said come before those days still lines up with this analysis. 

At the 6th seal onward things get rolling.  The two witnesses start sticking the spur into the unbelievers and the 144K are separated out. The latter could have started before the 6th seal.  And at the midpoint of the 7 years, the false messiah / antichrist nullifies the covenant as per Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18.   Then the Great Tribulation proper gets into full swing.

I am sure some tweaking will be needed on this analysis, I just recently was shown this newer way to approach the seals.

I will disagree a little on the 144K being the firstfruits of the Hebrews.  I am convinced that already was the case in Matthew 27 with the resurrection of the OT saints.  In neither case, the OT saints or the 144K, does the text specifically state they were caught up to Heaven.  So in the OT saints case, we have to rely on the testimony of those who knew the eyewitnesses of the account.  And they say that the OT saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father by Yeshua.

I disagree on a few points. I think the 24 elders are the very people Jesus raised in Mat. 27 when HE rose. 

I know the first seal is NOT teh Antichrist (2000 years off in timing) because Jesus got the book into His hands as soon as He ascended and began immediately opening the seals. The first hint of a time of waiting is at the 5th seal, the martyrs of teh church age. You are RUSHING John! the 5th seal is for church age martyrs. Stephen was in that bunch. 

The first seal is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. OF COURSE there must be conquering because Satan was and is the god of this world. Seals two through 4 ride together, they are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. However, God has LIMITED them in their "theater of operation" to only 1/4 of the earth. I think that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the Gospel began and would take in Europe, Africa and the Middle East. There is no hint of the number of people killed. Keep in mind, this is CHURCH AGE, not end times. Both world wars started in Europe. The black plague hit twice in Europe, but times killing around 1/3 of the people. There has been famine after famine in Africa. It all fits. They don't "gain" one forth, they are LIMITED to one fourth.

 The 1st thru 5th seals do not happen overnight.  It takes time for the false messiah to consolidate his power and for the false prophet and false religious system to get up and running in control of things.   

This is really NOT the intent of the Author! You are 2000 years off! Go and look at chapter 5 and notice that John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. You cannot add 2000 years! In fact, we the church are STILL at the 5th seal or the martyrs because God is looking for the final number - the LAST martyr of the church age. In short, they are waiting for the pretrib rapture that will END the church age.

AT the 6th seal the rapture has just happened and it is the DAY OF THE LORD!