When Nations turn against Israel

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Well, suppose you show us the verse in chapter 4, where Jesus is there at the right hand of the father, where many verses show us that is where He went to be - and where Stephen SAW Him. Since you are so sure He was there, it should be easy to show us the verse. 

If He was there, John would have seen Him! How could John miss the Son of the Most High God?  In fact, Jesus Christ, the head of the church, the Son of God, ASKED Me why He was NOT there in chapter 4. I think He should know if He was there or not. I thought it was a good question. I could not at first answer it.  You speak of lawyers: they follow clues: but you wish to ignore them and use preconceptions.  The very plain sense of the Text is that HE was NOT THERE in chapter 4. 

This is further proven because in that first search for one worthy, "NO MAN was found." This was the second question Jesus asked me: "Why was I not found in that first search John watched that ended in failure?"  Again I could not at first answer. There is a very good reason WHY He was not found in that search.

You are jumping ahead to chapter 5, without answering why Jesus was not seen in the throne room of chapter 4. When Jesus was teaching me, the very first thing He said about these two chapters is that "they show timing." Next, He said, "they show the movement of time." There is a TIME DIFFERENCE between some of these verses - for example when John first looked into the throne room and Jesus was NOT there, to the time Jesus suddenly appeared there in chapter 4. Another is the two different searches for one worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

I will tell you another thing Jesus said to me, because it fits anyone who studies these two chapters:  "Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision." There is a very good reason why Jesus was not seen in the throne room in chapter 4. That is a very good reason why the Holy Spirit was not yet sent down in chapter 4. there was a very good reason why "no man was found" in the first search.  The question is, are you interested in learning, or are your preconceptions too strong? 

Say what you want about the Holy Spirit, but DO please read?  " there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."  John apparently SAW this. Is the Holy Spirit visible? Perhaps God gave John something to see to represent the Holy Spirit.  Then in chapter 5:  "having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God..." And here He was sent down. The picture God is giving us is that He was there to a certain point, and then later sent down. It is just one more clue. 

You will have to understand, Jesus Christ, the head of the church spent TIME with me, teaching me HIS INTENT on these two chapters. And you are trying to teach me who knows what - certainly not what HE taught me. Sorry, but I am going to take His word over yours. After all, He was the one that was showing John the vision: I think He knew what His intent was. 

Now you have a choice: you can ignore the questions and continue on with your preconceived theories - that don't fit -  or you can be teachable. I will say this: it is VERY hard to learn when you already think you know.  At least you should ask yourself, is it even remotely possible that what I have written is actually the intent of the Author? Is it possible Jesus was NOT there when John first looked into the throne room - because this vision was of a time when He was still on the earth? Is it even remotely possible that the reason "no man was found" in that first search is because of timing - Jesus had not yet risen from the dead? Is it possible the Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down?

We are getting nowhere.  You want someone to prove a negative which just continues an endless “what if” dialogue.

We seeem to not come to agreement.  That’s ok since none of this is a condition of salvation.  Folks have been debating these things for almost 2000 years. No reason to believe it will be solved here.

I stated my position and gave reasoned evidence for it.  Now I can turn my attention to more important things.

[n2thelight]

On 7/8/2017 at 12:08 AM, Yowm said:

America is not Israel...PERIOD.

King James Bible
And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Who and where are those NATIONS, plural?

let me answer it for you,they are the Christian nations in the world today

Period!!!

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; Genesis 35:11 (KJV)

That is God's promise to Abraham and it pertains to his sons Isaac and Ishmael...mainly the Jewish and Arab nations. Not America.

I beg to differ,question who spreads the gospel around the world? 

[n2thelight]

4 hours ago, Yowm said:

So? England at one time did. Do mean to say whoever spreads the Gospel is Israel? I just don't find that in the Scriptures.

I mean to tell you that all of Israel are not Jews 

[n2thelight]

47 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Well ya, there are Arabs living in Israel too.

Read the promises God gave to Abraham and tell me they fit the Arab nations .

[ARGOSY]

12 hours ago, Yowm said:

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; Genesis 35:11 (KJV)

That is God's promise to Abraham and it pertains to his sons Isaac and Ishmael...mainly the Jewish and Arab nations. Not America.

I agree it is not specifically pointing to America, but remember the church is true Israel, not ethnic Israel:

Luke 3:8

Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham..

 

Romans 4  therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. ¹⁷ As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

[angels4u]

3 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I agree it is not specifically pointing to America, but remember the church is true Israel, not ethnic Israel:

Luke 3:8

Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham..

 

Romans 4  therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. ¹⁷ As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

The gentiles did not replace Israel, many churches and Christians believe these days that they are Israel, and it shocks me that anybody can even think that the Church replaced Israel, please read Romans 11 .

1And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in with them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11

All Israel Shall Be Saved ( covenant given to Abraham)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates-- Gen.15:18-21 ( Covenant given to Jacob)

 

Genesis 26:3

3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.Gen.26:3

There above it stood the LORD, and he said: "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.Gen 28:13

[angels4u]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

Ishmael was Abraham's son..

Genesis 16:10-14,16 NKJV
[10] Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude." [11] And the Angel of the LORD said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction. [12] He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." [13] Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?" [14] Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered. [16] Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.

Genesis 17:20 NKJV
[20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

That fits the Arab nations.

 

So Who are the Arabs?

People often use the term “Arab’ to describe non-Jewish people of Middle Eastern descent, including those that define themselves as ‘Palestinian’.  But are they Arabs?

The boundaries of land outlined in Scripture are categorized based on the two physical descendants of Abraham; Ishmael and Isaac, so let’s look at ‘Arab’ in those terms.

Some Arabs are descended from Esau (Jacob’s brother) and therefore don’t fall under either the promises made to Ishmael or to Isaac..

Some Arabs were born to Keturah (Abraham’s wife after Sarah’s death), so while these are ‘descendants of Abraham’ they are not through either Sarah (Abraham’s first wife) or Hagar (Sarah’s handmaiden, mother of Ishmael) as specified in Scripture. As such they do not inherit the land specified to descendants of Abraham though Isaac and Jacob (the Jews) nor to Abraham through Ishmael (the Ishmaelites).

Different Lands for the Descendants of Isaac and Ishmael

Based on Scripture, the land God gave to the Jewish people — to Abraham and his descendant through Isaac and Jacob (Israel) — and to the 12 Tribes of Israel, includes present-day Israel including the  so-called “West Bank” of the Jordan River(Judea and Samaria), western Jordan, south-western Syria, the southern tip of Lebanon, and all of the Golan Heights (east Manasseh).

The land of the 12 Tribes of Ishmael is the northern part of Saudi Arabia, south eastern Jordan, southern Assyria(specifically Southern Iraq) and Kuwait.http://www.jewishrootsofchristianity.ca/the-12-tribes-of-ishmael-and-their-land/

[ARGOSY]

59 minutes ago, angels4u said:

The gentiles did not replace Israel, many churches and Christians believe these days that they are Israel, and it shocks me that anybody can even think that the Church replaced Israel, please read Romans 11 .

1And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in with them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11

All Israel Shall Be Saved ( covenant given to Abraham)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates-- Gen.15:18-21 ( Covenant given to Jacob)

 

Genesis 26:3

3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.Gen.26:3

There above it stood the LORD, and he said: "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.Gen 28:13

No we don't replace Israel. Romans 11 is clear that we are allowed to become part of the olive tree. This is Completely different to replacing Israel. Unbelieving Jews are removed. And we are given permission to be grafted in to Israel.

This Israel, the olive tree of believers, will reach it's fullness one day. Thus all who are called will be saved. 

[ARGOSY]

27 minutes ago, Davida said:

That is one of the worst errors people can make as it leads to warping so much scripture and imposes wrong meanings upon God's promises to Israel, understanding of the NT and the Bible prophecies.  The church never ever replaced Israel , that is a false teaching. 

I never said the church replaced Israel. I quoted from Romans 11, which says the opposite to the church replacing Israel. Israel is the true vine, and Gentile believers are allowed to be grafted into that vine. Am I right? We are allowed a share in the higher destiny of Israel

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,  do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches