The problem with sacraments

[Ezra]

1 minute ago, Joline said:

These rituals are to obtain things from God by grace. Without Gods grace to justify. It is a means of receiving from God those things all Christians agree are necessary for salvation. That is the protestant mantra, we do not need to perform these rituals to gain these things That is all that is saying.

The whole basis of Sacramentalism is false.  So you can either reject it, or you can continue to hold fast to it in spite of Scripture. Salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing (Eph 2:8,9)..

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

As already pointed out by others this is incorrect. When something is incorrect, it should be dropped.

As already pointed out it is not incorrect. Let us return to the discussion of Gentiles which participate in Messianic congregations and the status they take on by observance of Halakah shall we?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The whole basis of Sacramentalism is false.  So you can either reject it, or you can continue to hold fast to it in spite of Scripture. Salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing (Eph 2:8,9)..

all forms of ritual participation for these things are false.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Qnts,,,,,

   I told you "why"I avoid these discussions when they go Off-Topic as this one did,,,,.just to clarify ,I never said YOU jumped down my throat,okay?

    Interesting you would quote from the Council of Trent from the 1500's,,,,,,,it is very much up to the "reigning" pope whether or not it hold to those "traditions",for lack of a better word                I did quote from a very recent edition of Douay's encyclopedia regarding the 'sacraments" earlier in this Thread because of the statement that "Jesus Instituted" them,which is just not accurate at all,,,,,,,,,,                   Love ,Kwik

I'm truly finished here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see you on the Boards!!!

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Ezra said:

As already pointed out by others this is incorrect. When something is incorrect, it should be dropped.

Rebbe Nachman of Breslov declared that one can completely rectify this sin of wasting seed in vain if after repenting he goes to the mikveh and then recites ten particular Psalms (16, 32, 41, 42, 59, 77, 90, 105, 137, 150) to rectify the damage of that transgression. (Earlier tzaddikim attempted to find ways to rectify this sin. See for example the Shl”a and Yesod Yosef, written by Rabbi Yosef ben Shlomo of Posen, dealing mainly with this topic. But they would not guarantee that their recommendations would completely correct the problem). Afterwards, a person should continue striving towards perfection without worrying about this episode.

These ten Psalms are known as the Tikkun Haklali. In Likutei Moharan I:29 Rabbi Nachman explained that to rectify all of a persons transgressions is very difficult, but if he can rectify the transgressions associated with the Brit, which encompasses all the other transgressions, he will thus rectify all of them. Therefore rectification of the Brit is called the general rectification – Tikkun Haklali.

In addition, Rebbe Nachman stated that these ten Psalms  have a special power and declared before two witnesses that if a person recites these Psalms at his grave in Uman and donates a pruta (a tiny amount of money) to charity in Rebbe Nachman’s honor, then Rebbe Nachman will make every effort to help that person escape from the depths, no matter how deeply he had fallen. To read more go here.

To listen to Tikun HaKlali…

 

[Guest]

 

 

For all you that wish to argue over theological Jewish knowledge you can argue with this man................Tell him and (or his colleges) he doesn't know Judaism, nor theology. After all the accusatory run around...low and behold I ran across this..................................You all can look up the whole writing if you wish, but for now and for here  let us let this suffice

The Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council (MJRC) was formally established in May 2006. It consists of a group of ordained Messianic Jewish Rabbis and associated leaders who share a common vision for Messianic Jewish practice rooted in Torah, instructed by Tradition, and faithful to Messiah Yeshua in the twenty-first century.

Rabbi Mark S. Kinzer

Dr. Mark Kinzer is the Rabbi of Congregation Zera Avraham in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Born in Detroit in 1952, Mark was raised in a Conservative Jewish home and became an adherent of Messiah Yeshua in 1971. He attended the University of Michigan (B.A., M.A., Ph.D.), and remains forever a loyal Wolverine. Mark is Senior Scholar and President Emeritus of Messianic Jewish Theological Institute, Chair of the Hashivenu Board, and author of Postmissionary Messianic Judaism (Brazos, 2005) and Israel's Messiah and the People of God (Wipf & Stock, 2010).

1 The Enduring Sacramental Character of Jewish Life in the Messiah A Messianic Jewish Perspective Mark S. Kinzer

Despite the characteristically Christian origins and connotations of the word “sacrament" and despite polemical attempts to use the word to draw artificial lines of demarcation between Jewish and Christian religion, the reality to which the word points is an integral feature of Jewish life. It is the reality of divine mediation --of the infinite God’s gracious self -giving within the finitude of the space-time world by means of “visible signs” ( human words, human acts, and created things). In the idiom of the Torah, this reality is signified by the word kedushah (holiness) and its cognate forms. God is holy- utterly distinct from creation in purity and power. Yet, God also chooses certain people, places, times, and objects within the created order to  belong to Him in a particularly intimate way and to be the locus of His special presence.

4

 

Judaism’s Five Primary

 Sacramental Signs

There are five expressions of holiness in this world that I will focus upon here: (1) Israel as holy people; (2) the Sabbath (and the holidays) as holy time; (3) the land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem as holy place; (4) the Torah as holy word; and (5) the mitzvoth as holy deeds. All five of these realities exist independently of the Temple, and their status in Jewish life was unchanged by the Temple’s destruction.

Jews have generally approached these five realities in a manner closely resembling the way Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and liturgically-oriented Protestants have treated Christian sacraments.

By God’s gracious decision and action, each of the five bears an intrinsic holiness that sets it apart from other members of its earthly class (i.e., peoples, times, places, words, deeds) . The increasing influence of Jewish mystical thought and practice in the medieval  period accentuated this sacramental approach. While Jews of a rationalistic bent have criticized such sacramentalism, their position was a minority viewpoint until the modern era, and remains a minority viewpoint within the world of traditional Judaism.

11

 

[enoob57]

This reminds me of Jesus' warnings about this sort of thing

Jn 10:1-5

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
KJV
Joline you do not return to law to improve grace nor does ethnic origin have advantage to The Church Age...
Love, Steven

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This reminds me of Jesus' warnings about this sort of thing

Jn 10:1-5

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
KJV
Joline you do not return to law to improve grace nor does ethnic origin have advantage to The Church Age...
Love, Steven

Hi steven

Tell that to those which think it does. I was merely pointing out the fact myself here.

Joline