The problem with sacraments

[OldSchool2]

from First things:

"The problem with sacramental theology is that it's sacramental theology.

"That is, the problem is the abstraction of certain events, acts, objects, things from their surroundings and subjected to detailed scrutiny...."

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/leithart/2016/05/the-problem-with-sacraments

[Willa]

It didn't make much sense to me.  I prefer we just read from Scripture and listen to the Holy Spirt as He interprets spiritual things to spiritual ears.  He makes it what He wants and each time it may differ a little.

[Ezra]

Sacramentalism detracts from the Gospel.  In fact it is another gospel.

[enoob57]

The bottom basic foundation is that we have been told all things... and God is not keeping any of
the first creation! So if it has this future we who are to be forever with Him better attach to that
which God 'IS' planning to keep forever!  Love, Steven

[missmuffet]

Question: "Are the seven Catholic sacraments biblical?"

Answer: “Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification” (taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that while God gives grace to man without outward symbols (sacraments), He has also chosen to give grace to man through visible symbols. Because God has done this, man is foolish to not make use of this God-provided means of gaining sanctification.

In order to qualify as a sacrament, the Roman Catholic Church states that it must meet the following three criteria: a) the external, that is, a sensibly perceptible sign of sanctifying grace, b) the conferring of sanctifying grace, c) the institution by God or, more accurately, by the God-Man Jesus Christ. Thus, sacraments are not merely a symbol, but are believed to actually confer sanctifying grace upon the recipient. The Roman Catholic Church believes that all of their seven sacraments were instituted by Christ Himself. There are seven Roman Catholic Sacraments, and they are as follows:

1) Baptism, which the Roman Catholic Church teaches removes original sin while infusing the act with sanctifying grace.
2) Penance, in which one confesses his/her sins to a priest.
3) The Eucharist, considered the reception and consumption of the actual body and blood of Christ.
4) Confirmation, a formal acceptance into the church along with special anointing of the Holy Spirit.
5) Anointing of the sick, performed by a priest using oil. The priest anoints the sick person´s forehead and hands with oil. This is associated not only with bodily healing but with forgiveness of sins. When performed on a dying person, it is called Extreme Unction (or last rites or final anointing).
6) Holy Orders, the process by which men are ordained to clergy.
7) Matrimony, which provides special grace to a couple.

The following are verses commonly cited to support the Roman Catholic belief concerning the sacraments: “Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Timothy 1:6). "Jesus answered, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (John 3:5). "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). "That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:23). "And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven" (James 5:15). "Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:17). "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed" (John 6:54-55).

It might seem by looking at these verses by themselves that, indeed, certain external actions do convey some benefit (such as eternal life, the forgiveness of sins, the presence or power of the Holy Spirit, etc.). However, when taken in the context of Scripture as a whole, there is no foundation for the belief that God ever intended these passages to be taken as support for rituals as a means of conveying grace. In other words, the whole idea of "sacraments" that convey saving grace upon people is unbiblical.

Two of the main sacraments specifically are said by the Roman Catholic Church to be necessary in order to gain eternal life: baptism and communion. Because of the Roman Catholic Church belief that baptism is required for salvation, Catholics maintain that it is important to baptize infants. But nowhere in Scripture can you find even a single example or command to do so. Some Roman Catholics use Acts 16:33 as a possible example, because it states that the Philippian jailor "and his family" were baptized. But, taking this verse in context, we note two things:

(1) When the jailor asked Paul what he must do to be saved, Paul did NOT say, "Believe on Jesus and be baptized and take communion." Rather, Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" (v. 31). Thus, we see that it is faith that is the ingredient necessary for salvation. It was understood that one who believed would be baptized, but baptism was not necessary for salvation. If it were, Paul would have given it more weight in his missionary journeys (1 Corinthians 1:14-18).

(2) We see that the "family" could not have included infants or toddlers, as it states in verse 34 that the jailor had "believed in God with all his household." Infants and toddlers cannot exercise faith in God in such a fashion.

Again and again throughout Scripture, faith, not faith PLUS baptism, is seen as the means through which one receives salvation (John 1:12; 3:14-16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:19-26; 4; 10:9-13; etc.).

Turning to communion, the Roman Catholic Church makes it clear that they take John 6:54 literally when Jesus says, "Unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." The problem is that their belief that Jesus is speaking literally here is not in keeping with the context of the passage in which Jesus repeatedly states the importance of faith in Him and His coming atoning death for their sins (see John 6:29,35,40,47 and consider the whole message of the gospel of John, as stated in John 20:31).

When one examines the remaining sacraments, one finds that the belief that they convey "sanctifying grace" is not in keeping with the context of the rest of the Bible. Yes, all Christians should be baptized, but baptism does not infuse us with grace. Yes, all Christians should partake of the Lord’s Supper, but doing so does not confer sanctifying grace. Yes, we should confess our sins, not to a priest, but rather to God (1 John 1:9). Having a formal training program and formal acceptance into the church is a good thing to do, but it does not convey saving grace. Being approved as a church leader is an honorable thing, but it does not result in grace. Marriage is a wonderful and blessed event in the life of a couple, but it is not the means of how God graces us. Praying for and with a person who is dying is a godly thing to do – but it does not add grace to our account.

All the grace we will ever need is received the moment we trust Jesus, by faith, as Savior (Ephesians 2:8-9). The saving grace that is granted at the moment of genuine faith is the only saving grace God’s Word calls on us to receive. This grace is received by faith, not by observing rituals. So, while the seven sacraments are “good things to do,” when they are understood in a biblical context, the concept of the seven sacraments as “conferring sanctifying grace” is completely unbiblical.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

from First things:

"The problem with sacramental theology is that it's sacramental theology.

"That is, the problem is the abstraction of certain events, acts, objects, things from their surroundings and subjected to detailed scrutiny...."

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/leithart/2016/05/the-problem-with-sacraments

From the moment of reading the op title, I went immediately to first fruits of Zion's discussions concerning the messianic doctrine of divine invitiation. I did this because I distinctly recalled thinking in the past, that keeping rabbinic ritual is a form of Messianic, rabbinic sacramentalism. However since most are ignorant of Rabbinic thought on such things as Halakah, and the theological categories into which Gentiles fit, it is almost impossible for those outside the movement to have a clue. And by the time it is spoken and taught on, you can't see the forest for the trees.

Having also been raised in a Catholic home, I distinctly remember thinking keeping the rituals set forth by oral torah of the Pharisees, are being viewed as a messianic sacrament. The thought disturbed me at the time, as I had come to the movement thinking I would finally get away from all that Catholic stuff lingering in the Church. I was very anti Catholic And of course these rituals being participated in by all both Jew and Gentiles makes it universal. That is what Catholic denotes is general to all, or universal to all. But I am gonna study this out further Just because of this thread.

[Guest]

Yep, here it is..... When they shifted from one law for all, and turned to the doctrine of divine invitation........... Concerning OBSERVANCE.

FFOZ’s New Theology of Divine Invitation Published September 24, 2009 Gentiles , Identity , Messianic Judaism , Torah-observance 2 Comments
Tags: Divine Invitation, FFOZ

A Preliminary Investigation of a Recent Theological Shift

"Now the question is to which category the Gentile believers in Yeshua, the Gentile Christians, belong. If we take first the twofold division between Jews and non-Jews, it is clear that these Gentiles belong to the category of the non-Jews, since they are neither Jews by birth nor proselytes. According to the above mentioned threefold division the Gentile Christian is thus either just a plain Gentile (i.e. a pagan), or a Ger Toshav.  By way of reduction it turns out that he is a Ger Toshav, because he cannot be honestly held to be a pagan. According to later terminology this almost equates to classifying the Gentile Christian as an observant Noachide, since he has renounced idolatry. This name would be appropriate at least for Gentile Christians of the first century, or the first two or three Christian centuries — not however for later Catholic Christians, who fell back into idolatrous practices.

Qua religious practice and level of observance the Ger Toshav was in between the pagan Gentile and the Jew. He had left Paganism, but he had not fully entered Judaism. His observance thus could vary between the levels of just avoiding idolatry on the one and full Jewish observance on the other — with the obvious exceptions only of circumcision and/or the mikvah of conversion. This seems to agree with the diverse levels of observance nowadays found among Gentile Christians who are attracted to Messianic Judaism."

[OldSchool2]

10 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

.... When the jailor asked Paul what he must do to be saved, Paul did NOT say, "Believe on Jesus and be baptized and take communion." Rather, Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" (v. 31).

"Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification," NOT our salvation.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

 

"Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification," NOT our salvation.

Yep, and their is more than one way of skinning that cat.

There are forms of this in different faiths. And those which practice the law (or rather Rabbinic ritual) to attain similar benefits are practicing a form of sacramentalism.

[kwikphilly]

Very good Joline,,,,,,,insightful,I like Old Schools post too,,,,,,,

Quote

4 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

"Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification," NOT our salvation.

Yep, and their is more than one way of skinning that cat.

There are forms of this in different faiths. And those which practice the law (or rather Rabbinic ritual) to attain similar benefits are practicing a form of sacramentalism.

I don't believe all "sacraments" are instituted by Jesus though,,,,,,for example as stated in the Douay-Challoner Text & the Confraternity for NT & Pslams(Catholic Press,,,,,,,edited by rvd Connell      

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A sacred outward sign or rite instituted by Christ to confer grace upon the soul.Each sacrament is a visible external rite or ceremony which is composed of matter & form,the matter being words or actions.the form being the words which are spoken by the minister in Christs Name & which determine the matter to be an efficacious sign of grace,,,,,,,,In making these rites sacraments ,Christ has made each of them an effective instrument for conferring special sacramental grace.Hence,from each the soul receives sanctifying grace & a special grace which helps one to carry out the particular purpose of that sacrament,,,,,,,This grace is not given because of the sanctity or faith of the minister ,although these may increase the grace given,but solely through the power of the sacramental rite

I am going to stop right there,I cannot go any further with this false teaching & that is what it is,,,,,,,,,,there is no "special grace"that is above Gods Grace given FREELY through Jesus to every believer who confesses Jesus is Lord & Savior,,,,,,,,,,,,increasing Gods Grace? As if His Grace as it is ,is NOT SUFFICIENT?!!!! This is not sound doctrine,Scripture does not support this

The Seven Sacraments of the RCC,,,,,Holy Orders,Confirmation,Baptism,Holy Eucharist,Penance,Extreme Unction,Matrimony,,,,,,,,,where has Christ Jesus instituted 7 sacraments,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it is not supported by Gods Word,not even out of context,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,