The problem with sacraments

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Joline said:

No they are not personal, the Ekklesia (Priesthood) operates (Ritual) unto the communicant ( co-operator). The priesthood performs the right as a work to Sanctify, the laity co operates with the priesthood in participation.................................

You have never heard of the inheritance from Abraham being priesthood? I find that strange?

 

A light to the nations concerning the promise to Abraham? Their distinct calling and role?

It is the difference between the ability to accept the disannulling of the carnal commandment to superceed the Levitical priesthood, but Gentiles seeing themselves as equal in this calling, being seen as a replacement theology. They wish to keep their carnal circumcision distinct here. Anyone usurping that distinction is replacing their holy prerogative of inheritance

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Joline said:

No they are not personal, the Ekklesia (Priesthood) operates (Ritual) unto the communicant ( co-operator). The priesthood performs the right as a work to Sanctify, the laity co operates with the priesthood in participation.................................

Of course the sacraments are personal  Here's the list posted earlier in the thread

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1) Baptism, which the Roman Catholic Church teaches removes original sin while infusing the act with sanctifying grace.
2) Penance, in which one confesses his/her sins to a priest.
3) The Eucharist, considered the reception and consumption of the actual body and blood of Christ.
4) Confirmation, a formal acceptance into the church along with special anointing of the Holy Spirit.
5) Anointing of the sick, performed by a priest using oil. The priest anoints the sick person´s forehead and hands with oil. This is associated not only with bodily healing but with forgiveness of sins. When performed on a dying person, it is called Extreme Unction (or last rites or final anointing).
6) Holy Orders, the process by which men are ordained to clergy.
7) Matrimony, which provides special grace to a couple.

Those are all personal and none of them pertain to corporate sanctification

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A light to the nations concerning the promise to Abraham? Their distinct calling and role?

That I understand, but that is again a corporate calling for the nation of Israel as a whole, which will be fulfilled during the millennium.   I don't see the connection between that and the sacraments.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Of course the sacraments are personal  Here's the list posted earlier in the thread

Those are all personal and none of them pertain to corporate sanctification

That I understand, but that is again a corporate calling for the nation of Israel as a whole, which will be fulfilled during the millennium.   I don't see the connection between that and the sacraments.

No, it is not a distinct calling for Israel. This is the only principal in which Messianic Judaism sees replacement theology instead of supercessionism.

The difference id right here.

They alone are able to superceed the Levitical priesthood. But Gentiles are not. Gentiles which think their calling is equal in this are considered to replace the Calling which is only to Israel. They do not mind replacement, but only for themselves leaving the law of a carnal commandment intact, in Christ

As for sacraments, we have been over this several times. That which sanctiies, blesses, is gracious towards.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Of course the sacraments are personal  Here's the list posted earlier in the thread

Those are all personal and none of them pertain to corporate sanctification

That I understand, but that is again a corporate calling for the nation of Israel as a whole, which will be fulfilled during the millennium.   I don't see the connection between that and the sacraments.

What is also of utmost concern of this corporate calling is....The rolling Forward of the work of Christ in our salvation.

The fall feast not yet fulfilled..............The day of atonement is a fall feast. Christ indeed has in fact atonened for our sins............You take that away NOW, and place it future to a collective. It is already part and parcel of the new covenant in his blood made 2000 years ago. It is finished.

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, Joline said:

No, it is not a distinct calling for Israel. This is the only principal in which Messianic Judaism sees replacement theology instead of supercessionism.

 

Replacement Theology is supercessionism.  Supercessionism is the seminary word for it.

The difference id right here.

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They alone are able to superceed the Levitical priesthood. But Gentiles are not. Gentiles which think their calling is equal in this are considered to replace the Calling which is only to Israel. They do not mind replacement, but only for themselves leaving the law of a carnal commandment intact, in Christ

I have to ask, where do you get this information?   If you are not making this up out of your head, what are your sources?   Because I am very, very familiar with Messianic Judaism and this isn't what I have heard from any mainline reputable Messianic Jewish Rabbis.  Please identify your sources.

Replacement theology, or supercessionism is the view that the Church is the "new Israel" that has replaced biblical Israel as the people of God and that all of the promised blessings made to Israel in the OT are now transferred to the Church.  Is that what you believe?

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As for sacraments, we have been over this several times. That which sanctiies, blesses, is gracious towards.

But your attempt to draw a parallel between the personal "sanctification" of the sacraments  and the corporate setting apart of Israel from the nations through the giving of the Torah is simply a non-starter.   You are not really very convincing about that.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Joline said:

What is also of utmost concern of this corporate calling is....The rolling Forward of the work of Christ in our salvation.

The fall feast not yet fulfilled..............The day of atonement is a fall feast. Christ indeed has in fact atonened for our sins............You take that away NOW, and place it future to a collective. It is already part and parcel of the new covenant in his blood made 2000 years ago. It is finished.

What?   What are you talking about??   I am not placing the atonement of our sins in the future.   Where are you getting this nonsense from?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

What?   What are you talking about??   I am not placing the atonement of our sins in the future.   Where are you getting this nonsense from?

You want sources? you just gave me one above by your own words. You said this is for Israel alone. You neglect to realize or acknowledge the parallels between  Catholicism's and Judaism's.

You said it is for Israel alone. What is?

The priesthood......................

The Catholic Church's respond with It is not for carnal Israel alone. We are all equally heirs of this priesthood. Don't you see that?

So It is Israel which superceeds the Levitical priesthood as YOU SAY! The Church historically has said we as Gentiles have likewise Superceeded the Levitical Priesthood. It is you and Messianic Judaism, as well as Rabbinic Judaism which Identifies Israel with this..........................

the only difference is you say of carnal descent (Circumcision) and the Chuch says by spiritual descent (circumcision of the heart.)

[angels4u]

6 minutes ago, Joline said:

You want sources? you just gave me one above by your own words. You said this is for Israel alone. You neglect to realize or acknowledge the parallels between  Catholicism's and Judaism's.

You said it is for Israel alone. What is?

The priesthood......................

The Catholic Church's respond with It is not for carnal Israel alone. We are all equally heirs of this priesthood. Don't you see that?

So It is Israel which superceeds the Levitical priesthood as YOU SAY! The Church historically has said we as Gentiles have likewise Superceeded the Levitical Priesthood. It is you and Messianic Judaism, as well as Rabbinic Judaism which Identifies Israel with this..........................

the only difference is you say by carnality and the Chuch says By the spirit.

 

Hi Joline, I'm just reading the conversation and I'm trying to understand where you stand on Israel,do you think that the Church replaced Israel?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 Hi Joline, I'm just reading the conversation and I'm trying to understand where you stand on Israel,do you think that the Church replaced Israel?

No THE CHURCH OF WHICH THE REMNANT ALONG WITH GENTILES DOES NOT REPLACE ISRAEL.

Israel is still a nation before God. Which has promises still of God by the covenant of circumcision. The carnal circumcision concerns their inheritance in this world and this life. Isreal will never cease to be a distinct nation before God as long as this world is present. But Israel has not accepted the atoning work of Christ yet. I also believe that is part of the promise given that nation as well, so they will eventually have their eyes opened.

Why? Because They are the firstborn. They always had a double portion as heirs of Abraham. Gentiles and the remnant have already entered into the promises spiritually BY FAITH THE SECOND PORTION OF THAT WHICH HAS BEEN PPROMISED TO THEM, that we all SHARE IN. We all nations have our birthright of inheritance in Abraham

 

[Guest shiloh357]

27 minutes ago, Joline said:

You want sources? you just gave me one above by your own words. You said this is for Israel alone. You neglect to realize or acknowledge the parallels between  Catholicism's and Judaism's.

 

You have not demonstrated any parallels.  Your attempt at parallels has been a dismal failure because you really don't understand Judaism.    You have not provided me with any sources in terms of authors, articles, etc.  regarding where you are getting your information.  Still waiting for you to provide these for review.

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You said it is for Israel alone. What is?

The priesthood......................

 

When did I say that?

 

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The Catholic Church's respond with It is not for carnal Israel alone. We are all equally heirs of this priesthood. Don't you see that?

I understand that. But the Bible doesn't say that.

 

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So It is Israel which superceeds the Levitical priesthood as YOU SAY! The Church historically has said we as Gentiles have likewise Superceeded the Levitical Priesthood. It is you and Messianic Judaism, as well as Rabbinic Judaism which Identifies Israel with this..........................

I am still at a loss as to what you keep accusing me of saying.  You are really not articulating well and I have not said anything like you claim I have.  I think you are assigning to me what you want to respond to, rather than what I have actually said.   You are trying to refute arguments I never raised.

 

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the only difference is you say of carnal descent (Circumcision) and the Chuch says by spiritual descent (circumcision of the heart.)

I am sorry, but you really need to read my responses.  I didn't say anything about carnal descent or circumcision.