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What is the doctrine of the Trinity?


angels4u

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Also,,,,,it is NOT a membership" condition",,,,,,,,,it is & I repeat "Our Statement of FAITH",,,,,,,,I just finished asking you "Why did you agree with this statement if it is NOT what you believe?" 

 I also told you that ALL are welcome here,you do NOT have to "agree" with our Statement of Faith ,as a condition to join,,,,,,,,,,so if you did not understand that then I do hope this clarifies it a little better as you did ask me to explain

Please,do not twist what I am saying or what our "Terms of Service" are,,,,,they are clearly & obviously written out,,,,,,,perhaps you simply did not take the time to read it,,,,,,,that may have been the case as it that option was pointed out to me by a moderator,,,,,,,,,

I encourage you to pray about this & I too am praying with you & for you

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On 6/7/2016 at 6:22 AM, TrevorL said:

Do you really believe that Jesus is claiming to be Deity in John 8:28?

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

:emot-heartbeat:

Beloved, Plainly

Yeshua spoke again to them: “When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. John 8:28 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

The LORD Jesus IS God

The man went away, and told the Yehudim that it was Yeshua who had made him well.
For this cause the Yehudim persecuted Yeshua, and sought to kill him, because he did these things on the Shabbat.
 
But Yeshua answered them, "My Father is still working, so I am working, too."
For this cause therefore the Yehudim sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Shabbat, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:15-18 (Hebrew Names Version)

The Son Of God

Yeshua therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent him.

"Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live. John 5:19-25 (Hebrew Names Version)
 
See?
 
These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son, that your Son also may glorify you:

As you have given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. John 17:1-5 (King James 2000)

~
 
See Jesus [The LORD Of Armies (Hosts)] And Be Blessed Beloved
 
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
 
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:1-8 (King James Version)
 
Love, Your Brother Joe
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Beloved, Plainly

Yeshua spoke again to them: “When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. John 8:28

Trevor,,,,,Beloved,it is Gods Word,irrefutably,irreversibly,inerrant God Inspired     WORD                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

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11 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Home page,,,,,,bottom left "Statement of Faith",,,,,,next to ToS(Terms of Service),,,,,,,,,      Do you not read what you are signing on to? Worthy Christian Forums is not any "denomination",,,,it is a CHRISTIAN MINISTRY,,,,,,,,,why do you ask if "I" have "considered"any verses of Scripture,,,,,I am not the one who is questioning Jesus Deity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you are here,as you say,to seek Gods Truth then why do you "refute" what every single person here is trying to "show you",,,,,,,seems to me you have"your mind "made up,,,,,,,,,you seem to me to be very firm & set on your own understanding which is in complete opposition of what the Word of God says ,,,,,not in one single Scripture verse but time & time AGAIN throughout the Bible,,,,,,,in Jesus very own Words,,,,,,you sir,need to "consider:

 

10 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Also,,,,,it is NOT a membership" condition",,,,,,,,,it is & I repeat "Our Statement of FAITH",,,,,,,,I just finished asking you "Why did you agree with this statement if it is NOT what you believe?" Does that not make you a liar?

 I also told you that ALL are welcome here,you do NOT have to "agree" with our Statement of Faith ,as a condition to join,,,,,,,,,,so what is the purpose of lying?

Please,do not twist what I am saying or what out "Terms of Service" are,,,,,they are clearly & obviously written out

 

Greetings again kwikphilly and greetings FresnoJoe,

 

I appreciate your posting the “statement of faith”. When I read it, it seemed a bit familiar and perhaps when I first joined I did read this. My impression is that this represents a fairly simple statement of mainly Protestant beliefs, and not defining any of the differences that are particular to some of the many branches of Protestantism. I cannot recollect if I had to agree with this statement and have therefore by omission misrepresented my position, but I do not agree with quite a few aspects of this statement. My own definition of the faith of the gospel would be much more detailed, starting with Acts 3:19-21, 8:5,12 and then looking at Acts 2 and many other Scriptures. On the subject of the Trinity, is the Trinity taught in Acts 2? I believe that this chapter should be carefully considered for the correct teaching on a number of subjects.

 

When I joined I had decided to discuss things that were common and I have posted Psalm 1, Psalm 72 threads and discussed prophecy. But when I saw this thread on the Trinity I felt challenged and thought I could clarify some aspects of the Biblical teaching. Perhaps I should have stayed in the neutral subject areas. I appreciate your strong feeling on my position, and yes I have a strong opinion on many of the Scriptures that I have quoted and this opinion has been formed over many years and in discussion with and listening to many people.

 

If I could wind back the clock and be more conscious of what was stated when I joined, and if it said “do you agree with “The Statement of Faith” ”, I would have said “No”. Even if this was only implied then I overlooked these conditions, as I simply attempted to register knowing that most probably there would be a range of opinion, and the mainstream as represented by the Worthy Forum would be normal Protestant view of major subjects. I had only just left a forum with radical views and radical participants, and sighed a breath of relief when I joined this forum.

 

8 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

Yeshua spoke again to them: “When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. John 8:28 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

 

7 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Trevor,,,,,Beloved,it is Gods Word,irrefutably,irreversibly,inerrant God Inspired     WORD                        

 

Kwik, you seemed to object at first to my asking “Have you carefully considered John 8:28?” but now you have endorsed what FresnoJoe has responded to on this verse.

 

I suggest that you need to understand the difference between a literal translation and a commentary type or dynamic equivalent translation. The translation given here of John 8:28 is strongly biased towards the Trinitarian view and does not correctly translate the Greek original. Ezra was closer to the mark when he gave “I AM” here, but by using capitals even this is biased to represent that it is a direct quote from Exodus 3:14. “I AM THE LIVING GOD” is simply not there. So Kwik, please be careful in your strong affirmations and become more aware of the whole subject of translations.

 

8 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
 
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

 

I agree that Isaiah 6 is a vision of Jesus in glory as John 12 clearly states. I believe that this is a vision of the future when Jesus will be revealed as Yahweh, the name given to him, and he will sit upon his throne as King-Priest on the throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4. This revealing of Yahweh is stated in:

Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Please note that this is to the glory of God the Father. There is one God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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Blessings Trevor,,,,

     Please,don't misunderstand what I am saying,,,,,first & foremost,I love you,,,,,,so let's make that very clear,,,,,,,I do not see any conditions for loving anyone,,,,,,yes,I strongly oppose anything that is in opposition to Gods Word,,,,,,,& I don't object to you saying "Have you considered....?",,,,,,The point here is like when you ask a person a question & they turn it around or avoid answering by instead,answering with a question-lol   See what I mean Trevor?

    Anyway,I have always endorsed what Joe says,,,,as a matter of fact,that is the whole point of the matter,the Topic,,,,,,,however,I did retract my question to you & I do apologize for asking you if you were not being truthful,I really did not consider you may have simply not read it,,,,,,,,,,,please,accept my apology,,,,,,,This is something that does need to be discussed & "No,I don't think you should avoid these types of conversations & stay "neutral",,,,,,,,Trevor,the whole purpose of the Body of Christ in fellowship is to reason together,encourage,extol,edify,grow,learn,,,,,,& of course,,,,be effective as ONE BODY,,,,,,,,Christ is our HEAD,you do believe & support that,correct?

   Trevor,I have a very dear friend that is a JW,,,,,,,she,unlike most of the typical JW,,,,,does read a KJV Bible,,,,,,,I believe she has the mindset that you do(???),,,,,,,I read that "WHOSOEVER believes,,,,,,,,

Quote

King James Bible
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.                                  John 3:15

  Now,what I'm saying is & I might be wrong but I will say it anyway,,,,,,,I am not sure that not believing in the Trinity has to be a Salvational issue,,,,,,,but it definitely is a hinderance,,,,,,,,,I mean even the demons "believe",as a matter of fact they were in Gods Presence in Heaven so they have already stood in His Glory to see Him as He IS,the Great I AM,,,,,,,,,,but without understanding Jesus Deity,King of kings,Lord of lords,,,,,,,,,how much of a Relationship can one have with anyone that they don't know WHO they truly are? How could the Son,not being God,have been Perfect to be without sin? ,,,,,,,perhaps I do not understand WHAT you do understand about Jesus?And I am not even going to get into "translations:",,,,I studied Koine Greek for many years & it is not detrimental to this issue,unless you insist on going there for some reason to try to make the Word of God support your interpretations,,,,,,,,,

    Anyway,you either believe Gods Word literally or you don't,,,,,,,,,,

Quote

 

I suggest that you need to understand the difference between a literal translation and a commentary type or dynamic equivalent translation

My conclusions,after roughly 20 years of ancient language studies I finally came to be enlightened that a very educated,academic & learned mind is the greatest hindrance to Revelation by the Power of the Holy Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,knowledge can often get in the way of Wisdom,,,,,,,,,,Gods Word does not change from verse to verse,,,,from literal to commentary to euphanisms to ,,,,,,well,I'm sure you see what I'm saying     It seems whenever someone does not "like" something Gods Word says or it does not support their logic or reasoning,they go to a "Strongs dictionary" & attempt to dissect it,,,,,,,,,that is not due diligence in translations,,,,,

   I do hope you realize that my "strong affirmations" do not come from translations or my own efforts or many years of research,,,,,,,they come from my Relationship with my Jesus,the One Who Abides in me,,,,,,,not in future tense,not in an imaginary or an allegorical way,,,,,,,but in Spirit & in Truth

                                                                                                               With love-in Christ,Kwik

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3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I agree that Isaiah 6 is a vision of Jesus in glory as John 12 clearly states. I believe that this is a vision of the future when Jesus will be revealed as Yahweh, the name given to him, and he will sit upon his throne as King-Priest on the throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4.

 

This revealing of Yahweh is stated in:

Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Please note that this is to the glory of God the Father. There is one God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

:thumbsup:

Isaiah 6 Clearly Shows Us Christ On His Throne Before His Birth

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Above it stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly.

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

And the posts of the door were shaken at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Isaiah 6:1-4 (King James 2000)

As Recorded In The First Testament Of Jesus

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government is placed upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called The Wonderful One, The Counsellor, The God, The Mighty One, The Eternal Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (King James 2000)

~

Beloved, "Before The World Was"

And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. John 17:5 (King James 2000)

"While On Earth"

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Philippians 2:5-8 (King James 2000)

And "Thereafter"

Therefore, God also has highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11 (King James 2000)

Jesus As I Read Of Him,

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart, and thou shalt repeat them diligently unto thy sons and shalt talk of them being in thy house and walking by the way, lying down in bed, and rising up; Deuteronomy 6:4-7 (King James 2000)

IS Lord

Therefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James 2000)

~

Beloved Please Forgive Dear kwikphilly

But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18 (King James 2000)

She Grieves When The Holy Name

that everyone should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who has sent him. John 5:23 (King James 2000)

Of Her LORD And Her God

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 2:28 (King James 2000)

Is Blasphemed

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me; John 15:26 (King James 2000)

As Do I

Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; by which we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: but he that confesses the Son has the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he has promised us, even eternal life.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that deceive you. But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone that does righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:18-29 (King James 2000)

Love, Your Brother Joe

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Blessings Brother Joe,,,,,,,

       Thank you Brother,,,,yes,it does break my heart & yes,it would break my heart all the more if Trever did not accept my sincere apology,,,,,,,,,,& it is because I love him,as Jesus does                                                                                                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

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2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

I am not even going to get into "translations:",,,,I studied Koine Greek for many years & it is not detrimental to this issue,unless you insist on going there for some reason to try to make the Word of God support your interpretations,,,,,,,,,

 

Greetings again kwikphilly and FresnoJoe,

 

I appreciate your many kind thoughts in your latest Post. I will respond to two aspects for the moment. Neither you nor Joe really responded or perhaps understood what I was saying about John 8:28. Joe quoted from a translation that interpreted the “I am” phrase with a Trinitarian bias and explanation with “I AM THE LIVING GOD”, rather than simply translating it as “I am” as per the original text. Unless this is his favourite translation, he must have searched far and wide to find a translation that gave this result. The KJV on the other hand added a word showing how they understood this, as “I am he”, but note the italics that indicate that they added this word “he” in order to give the sense as they understood this. Yes, I think it is important to understand the limitations of each translation. I read a chapter in the morning from an Interlinear RV / KJV and the comparison is interesting and instructive. I also use other translations for reference, not to find a translation that suits my preconceived ideas, but an attempt to get closer to the meaning of a passage.

 

2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

How could the Son,not being God,have been Perfect to be without sin? ,,,,,,,perhaps I do not understand WHAT you do understand about Jesus?

 

I suggest you are reinforcing your ideas by such a question. From my perspective a Trinitarian removes the human side of Jesus and also ignores the reality of Jesus being the Son of God and the son of Mary, most probably the most faithful woman who has ever lived. Then there is the education of Jesus by God his Father as depicted in Isaiah 11 and 49. Jesus overcame by faith, not because of the Trinitarian concept that he almost could not sin.

 

2 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

Isaiah 6 Clearly Shows Us Christ On His Throne Before His Birth

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

 

Was the Temple in heaven or upon earth? I believe that Isaiah was near the Temple in Jerusalem and then saw this vision open up to him of the Most Holy Place of the Temple. The contrast is also between king Uzziah who went to burn incense in the Holy Place seeking also the priesthood but was struck with leprosy and the future King-Priest enthroned in the Most Holy Place beyond the veil. Jesus has become the King-Priest in the fullest sense after his death and resurrection.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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On 6/7/2016 at 5:19 PM, TrevorL said:

 

Greetings enoob57,

 

I appreciate your response, but you seem to completely dismiss the Scriptures and explanation on the basis of your Trinitarian view of John 17 and Philippians 2. A brief tentative answer, John 17 is speaking of the glory that Jesus had in prospect before the creation and Philippians 2 is speaking of the disposition of mind that Jesus had after his birth as the Son of God. He was like Adam and Eve who were made in the image and likeness of God, the form of God, but unlike them he did not grasp at equality with God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Allow me to try to explain the Trinity in a novel way, since scriptures don't seem to do it for you brother. Is Jesus God the Father ? No, but Jesus is God the Son/Redeemer and has always been with God, just as has the Holy Spirit. "Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness" 

I like to use an illustration. Take a body of water that has the exact same properties throughout, say 3 Trillion Gallons. Every ounce of water is the exact same, has the same chemical make-up, etc. etc. Now take 100 gallons of water (Jesus) and dump it over your head, you will be soaked, but will be OK. Now take another 100 gallons of water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, you will again be soaking wet, but you will live. Now it is Glory Time.....take the whole 3 trillion gallons of water and pour it over your head, you will surly drown, no doubt. The Father has the Glory, no man can look upon him. BUT.....Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are made up of the exact same "properties" Love, Hope, Longsuffering, Grace, Mercy, Holiness, Righteousness, Sovereignty, Peace, Goodness, Eternality etc. etc. But the abundance of the Glory is with God the Father. 

 

The Holy Spirit can live in our Hearts, as can Jesus. But God the Father with his Glory could not, we would be consumed by His Glory, Moses couldn't even look upon him, lest he die. The Three are the same, but with different offices. God the Father, God the Son/Redeemer and God the Comforter/Holy Spirit.

 

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7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Allow me to try to explain the Trinity in a novel way, since scriptures don't seem to do it for you brother. Is Jesus God the Father ? No, but Jesus is God the Son/Redeemer and has always been with God, just as has the Holy Spirit. "Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness" 

I like to use an illustration. Take a body of water that has the exact same properties throughout, say 3 Trillion Gallons. Every ounce of water is the exact same, has the same chemical make-up, etc. etc. Now take 100 gallons of water (Jesus) and dump it over your head, you will be soaked, but will be OK. Now take another 100 gallons of water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, you will again be soaking wet, but you will live. Now it is Glory Time.....take the whole 3 trillion gallons of water and pour it over your head, you will surly drown, no doubt. The Father has the Glory, no man can look upon him. BUT.....Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are made up of the exact same "properties" Love, Hope, Longsuffering, Grace, Mercy, Holiness, Righteousness, Sovereignty, Peace, Goodness, Eternality etc. etc. But the abundance of the Glory is with God the Father. 

 

The Holy Spirit can live in our Hearts, as can Jesus. But God the Father with his Glory could not, we would be consumed by His Glory, Moses couldn't even look upon him, lest he die. The Three are the same, but with different offices. God the Father, God the Son/Redeemer and God the Comforter/Holy Spirit.

 

that sounds plausible, except it was not the Father that Moses saw the back side of.....   it was the pre-incarnate Jesus.    No man has seen the Father at any time......    Moses saw his back when he first met him on the mountain and he and Aaron two other guys I can't spell their names off hand and 70 of the elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel.....   which was/is   pre-incarnate Jesus for no one has ever seen the Father.

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