kwikphilly Posted June 9, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 306 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,130 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,806 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2016 Blessings Trevor,,,,,,,,,,,,, No worries,my pleasure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you do keep referencing to us(Joe & I ) as having bias or "ideas",,,,,,,,I didn't look up any "translation",,,,,what I have in front of me is a KJV,at the moment which is translated from the Greek Text as I AM "HE",,,,,, both I and AM are both from the primary 1st person (singular),,,don't get too excited because next,,,we have "He" which is the 2nd Person and is "plural",,,,,,,anyway ,as Revelation Man mentioned,this particular verse of Scripture,which really should be read in context,is not "doing it" for you-lol So,instead of going into the Prophetic Visions of Isaiah ,why don't we simply go back to Genesis,is that okay? Quote Genesis 1:26 – Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 3:22 – Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” Genesis 11:7 – “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” Help me to better understand what YOU understand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Who do you believe is "Us,We,Our" ? Also-is that okay that we have this discussion here,Angels4u? Trevor? With love-in Christ,K wik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted June 10, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,763 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,161 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 4 hours ago, kwikphilly said: Blessings Trevor,,,,,,,,,,,,, No worries,my pleasure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you do keep referencing to us(Joe & I ) as having bias or "ideas",,,,,,,,I didn't look up any "translation",,,,,what I have in front of me is a KJV,at the moment which is translated from the Greek Text as I AM "HE",,,,,, both I and AM are both from the primary 1st person (singular),,,don't get too excited because next,,,we have "He" which is the 2nd Person and is "plural",,,,,,,anyway ,as Revelation Man mentioned,this particular verse of Scripture,which really should be read in context,is not "doing it" for you-lol So,instead of going into the Prophetic Visions of Isaiah ,why don't we simply go back to Genesis,is that okay? Help me to better understand what YOU understand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Who do you believe is "Us,We,Our" ? Also-is that okay that we have this discussion here,Angels4u? Trevor? With love-in Christ,K wik Hello Kwik, of course it's OK to discuss this conversation Hello Trever , if you don't believe in the Trinity ,do you believe that Jesus is God? In John 1:! it explains it very well : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In the beginning. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Proverbs 8:22-31 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old… Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which … Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Hebrews 1:10 And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the … Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning … Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Revelation 1:2,8,11 Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus … Revelation 2:8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things said … Revelation 21:6 And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning … Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. the Word. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory… 1 John 1:1,2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we … 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, … Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a clothing dipped in blood: and his name … with. John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is … John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, … John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory … Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old… 1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, … the Word was. John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one… John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God. Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom … Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin … Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government … Isaiah 40:9-11 O Zion, that bring good tidings, get you up into the high mountain; … Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, … Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ … Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was … Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the … Hebrews 1:8-13 But to the Son he said, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: … 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ… 1 John 5:7,20 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted June 10, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 306 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,130 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,806 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2016 Thanks Sis,,,,,just wanted to be sure & so glad you have joined in again,,,,,,Trevor doesn't come on this early,we're the 2 early birds-lol Love,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted June 10, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) Greetings again kwikphilly, Revelation Man and angels4u, 15 hours ago, kwikphilly said: No worries,my pleasure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you do keep referencing to us(Joe & I ) as having bias or "ideas" The reason why I concentrated on John 8:28 was that it was part of my explanation of the “I am” passages of John’s Gospel. My detailed explanation of these is on page 9, post 2 where I was trying to prove that Jesus is claiming to be the Christ. I have also reinforced my view by some comments on page 9, post 4 where I gave an explanation of how I understand Exodus 3:14 and the Yahweh Name as it is developed throughout Scripture. As a result I suggested that John 8:58 is not linked with Exodus 3:14, despite the popular view on this. Overall you can decide if Jesus is claiming to be the Christ or he is claiming to be the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. I believe he is claiming to be the Christ. I decided to make a survey of how the different translations rendered John 8:28 and possibly the second of the two views is clearly shown by the bias of some of these translations. I found the differences interesting and will allow you to draw your own conclusions. Part of my interests is to collect books, and this includes many different Bibles, some in print and a few electronic only. I was only looking at the phrase translated in the KJV “I am he” from John 8:28. I checked the following translations and (P) = print copy; (E) = electronic copy. I am he: KJV (P), RV (mg: Or I am) (P), YLT (P) I am He: NASB (mg: Lit. I AM) (P) I am he: RSV (P), ESV (P), NRSV (mg Gk I am) (P), Rotherham (P), Douay-Rheims (E), NCV (E), NET (mg Gk I am – also extensive tn on the two views, that Jesus is claiming to be Messiah or claiming to be the same as the Name of God in Exodus 3:14) (E) I am He: NKJV (P), JB (P), NJB (P), Weymouth (P) I am [he]: Darby (P) I AM he: NLT (mg Gk I am) (E) I am the one I claim to be: NIV (mg Or I am he) (P) I AM: NAB (E), “Literal” as supplied by Ezra on page 9, post 3 I am what I am: NEB (P), REB (P) I am who I am: Barclay (P) I am: Marshall’s literal (P) you will know who I am: Moffatt (P), Message (P) you will recognize that it is myself you look for: Knox (P) I AM THE LIVING GOD: Aramaic Bible in Plain English (as quoted by FresnoJoe on page 10 post 2) The biggest surprise to me was the NEB, and I was disappointed that this was not corrected by the REB, my latest Bible purchase. 15 hours ago, kwikphilly said: So,instead of going into the Prophetic Visions of Isaiah ,why don't we simply go back to Genesis,is that okay? I should also add Revelation Man's mention of Genesis 1:26 here, together with kwik's request. 10 hours ago, angels4u said: Hello Trever , if you don't believe in the Trinity ,do you believe that Jesus is God? In John 1:! it explains it very well : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. I believe that there is one God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I have already briefly looked at John 1 in page 4, post 8, page 5, post 8 and page 6, post 4. I have considered the use of the word “God” (Hebrew Elohim) in the OT by looking at John 10:30-36 in page 7, post 3 and page 7, post 6. I have briefly considered Genesis 1:26 in page 8, post 8. If you would like to discuss any of this further please let me know. Angels4u: Perhaps you would like me to respond to the many verses that you have quoted in your latest Post. I would select only a few at first, ones that I feel that I could give a reasonable answer.. Kind regards Trevor Edited June 10, 2016 by TrevorL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted June 10, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 306 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,130 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,806 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2016 Blessings Trevor,,,,, It is a beautiful day here in South Florida,,,,,,Glory to God Most High!!!!! Firstly I want to say "thank you" for always responding to the "many" questions we are asking you ,you are polite ,courteous and it is a pleasure talking to you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it can be difficult when there are 2 or 3 people asking different questions ,, Now then "mate"-lol So you want to start collecting,that is fantastic,you would enjoy my library,I have quite a collection,,,,,I started searching over 30 years ago for early "translatiions" which lead me to researching what is actually attainable(texts,scrolls,books,various parchments(duped many times-lol) We have a lot in common,,,,,,,,,,Book Nerd? Me too! Before I respond to your references I will look them up(I have nearly all you mentioned)plus I will read the posts you wrote ,,,I don't do " electronic" so give me a little time,okay? I came into the conversation only recently so I will have to go through it......... to be continued,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Praise Jesus,,,,,, With love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted June 11, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted June 11, 2016 16 hours ago, kwikphilly said: It is a beautiful day here in South Florida,Glory to God Most High ! Greetings again kwikphilly and angels4u, Nice to hear that things are going well on the other side of the globe. We are having a nice winter’s day over here in mid NSW on the coast. We were treated lightly with the recent weather that swept from Queensland, through NSW and Victoria bringing some flooding to some regions and then flooded northern Tasmania. Another one of my interests is feeding the local birds and it is interesting to see the sulphur-crested cockatoos, lorikeets, eastern rosellas, pink galahs, various pigeons including a white crested and front larger bush pigeon, duck-like geese and ducks line up to take their pecking-order turn at the grain and water. I also enjoy many others that are regular visitors but do not eat this grain, and some that I have only seen once or twice in the area. I read a very encouraging chapter this morning Isaiah 26. Today also should see the return to relative normalcy, with God’s blessing, from a traumatic and difficult circumstance that commenced 5 weeks ago. This has been achieved by the help of an unknown stranger who after his kind deed and wisdom 5 weeks ago was able to turn the situation around and then disappeared again into the night, and with professional hospital help, and then the support and care by members of our meeting and some family members. I would like to briefly draw attention again to Acts 2 that I mentioned in an earlier post: Acts 2:22-24,32-36 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. I would like to emphasise the underlined words and ask the question: Are these terms the type of language and ideas that fit comfortably with the Trinitarian view? Now this address by Peter was spoken to a Jewish audience, fiercely monotheistic. Where in this speech is there any hint of this great change from monotheism to the Trinity, and for that matter in any records of the preaching of the Apostles in the Book of Acts? From my perspective they speak of Jesus as a man, that he was approved of God, that it was God that did the miracles through him, it was God that raised him from the dead, and Jesus is now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, God then gave Jesus the Holy Spirit power that was received by the Apostles and God has now made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Do Trinitarians really appreciate even these title, Lord and Christ and how and when did he receive these functions? On 10/06/2016 at 11:28 AM, angels4u said: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Proverbs 8:22-31 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old… I decided to give a brief response to a few of your Scriptures: Genesis 1:1: Yes, God the Father created the heavens and earth. Consider Psalm 8. Proverbs 8-22-31: This is a personification of God’s wisdom as a wise woman Hebrews 7:3: Jesus had a father, God and a mother, Mary. It is speaking of the Order of Melchizedek in comparison to the hereditary priesthood of Aaron. Hebrews 13:8: Yes, Jesus was the same, and is the same, but this is not saying from eternity. 1 John 5:7: This is regarded as spurious by most scholars and commentators and is excluded from most Bible translations. Refer my response on page 8, post 6. John 1:18: But the Scriptures say that no man can see God, and thus Jesus is not God the Son but a man, the Son of God. John 10:30-33: I gave an extensive response to John 10:30-36 on page 7, posts 3 and 6. 2 Peter 1:1: Why is God spoken of as a separate entity from Jesus Christ, not only here but in the introduction of EVERY NT letter? 2 Peter 1:1-2 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 On 6/8/2016 at 10:52 PM, TrevorL said: . From my perspective a Trinitarian removes the human side of Jesus and also ignores the reality of Jesus being the Son of God and the son of Mary, most probably the most faithful woman who has ever lived. Yes, you are correct. The trinity is about GODS NATURE, not mans. The Son has existed from all eternity with the father. He is BORN from the Father from all eternity. The incarnation of the Son, is distinct theology. You can look to Christology for that. The God man. this speaks to the nature of Christ. Therefore Christ being the Son of the Father and son of Man is twice born. The fathers never sought to explain the mystery. They knew our finite minds could not comprehend the infinite God. To attempt to explain how God the Son was also man, could not be defind by human terms. To do so will always result in heresy. there are no terms for us to that, as we cannot comprehend it. The doctrine of the trinity is spoken of in terms of RELATIONSHIP between the persons of the God head. The Father is the source The son is born from the father The holy spirit proceeds from the father But just so you are aware There was a schism in 1050 ad between the Roman Church and the Greek church. Rome decided to add to the ancient creed They said the holy sprit proceeds from the father ......and from the Son. Each person remains distinct by their unique relationship to the others. Therefore this addition caused the Roman creed to be viewed as SEMI-MODALISM. In confusing and confounding the relationships confuses the persons......................Rome stating the Holy Sprit shared the same relationship with the Father as He does The Son. The Greek Orthodox Keep the relationships distinct...............Refusing the later addition "and from the Son". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther4:14 Posted June 12, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2016 On 6/1/2016 at 5:35 AM, TrevorL said: Greetings angels4u, I believe that “The Word” in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the personification of “Wisdom” as a wise woman in Proverbs 8. The Word existed before its full manifestation in Jesus. When Jesus was revealed at the age of 30 he was full of grace and truth. The glory he revealed was a result of his begettal, and the process of this begettal is revealed in Matthew and Luke, where God the Father is his father, and Mary his mother. Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. There are also semi-personifications of “word” in Psalm 33 and Isaiah 55: Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Isaiah 55:8-11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor Hi Trevor, I am very impressed with what you have contributed throughout the discussion. I am inclined to agree with your conclusion that "there is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God." I have questions about what has become accepted as Trinity doctrine within western churches because I know that there have been many attempts to oppress our understanding within the history of the church. This oppression of our understanding concerns me along with the ready acceptance that we have concluded some sort of understanding about the unity Christ describes in the Gospels when we cannot know what it means to be created in "our" image, and we will not know what this means until we are like Him and can see Him as He is (Genesis 1:26; 1 John 3:2). Romans 10:9 says "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Therefore, I wonder why people make this subject a salvation issue. I do not believe that my salvation is in question if I question aspects of Trinity doctrine, because this also does not mean I reject it altogether. I just don't think it is a conclusion to the subject regarding the unity He says He has with the Father and I find it difficult to understand how we can reject the possibility that our understanding of the subject is oppressed in some way. However, I think it is an effort of great discernment, which should not be taken lightly either. Anyways, I was reading something interesting today related to this subject from The Zohar with regard to the presence of the word in the creation of the world. The Zohar says "Seeking to be revealed, to be named, it garbed itself in a splendid, radiant garment and created (elleh) these. (Elleh) attained the name: these letters joined with those, culminating in the name (Elohim). Until it created (ellah), it did not attain the name (Elohim). Based on this mystery, those who sinned with the Golden Calf said (Elleh), These are your gods, O Israel!' (Exodus 32:8). Just as is combined with (elleh), so the name (Elohim) is constantly polysemous. Through this mystery, the universe exists." (page 8 Zohar Pritzker Edition). Then, it goes on to recount some sort of vision of Elijah coming to give this message of wisdom basically saying that God attained the name Elohim by creating the universe and that prior to this, He did not exist in this same position? Reading it is a little bit like reading doublethink. Anyways, it then continues on to personify the Hebrew letters as being capable of speech independently. "These, I remember (Psalms 42:5). 'With my mouth I mentioned them, in my yearning I poured out my tears, drawing forth these letters. Then I conduct them from above to the house of Elohim, to be Elohim, like Him." (page 9). So, these letters represent "our" image? Or, in other words, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God (John 1:1). Then it goes on to say that these letters were with God for a long time and when it came time to begin the creation of the world, they asked for permission to be used to create the world. One by one they are rejected until bet was eventually chosen. "The blessed Holy One replied, 'Indeed, by you I will create the world. You will be the beginning of Creation." (page 16). So, apparently, bet was the letter used to create the world. But, it was even more interesting to me what He says to yod and vav and he. He says to yod, "It is enough for you to be engraved in Me, to be inscribed in Me. My desire culminates in you. You should not be uprooted from My name," (page 15). And, to the other two letters, He says, "Vav, it is enough for you and (he) to be letters of My name, included int he mystery of My name, engraved and carved in My name. I will not create the world by either of you." (page 16). Personally, I do not believe the letters of the Hebrew alphabet are personified the way the Zohar suggests. Reading the Zohar does cause one to realize what Jesus meant when He said that they love to offer long prayers to get people to think they are special (Luke 20:47). I would describe a lot of it as this or that Rabbi boasting of his revelation, which is often long and drawn out and makes me somewhat grateful the creation account is so brief and to the point. But, it is particularly interesting to consider the many similarities between the passage from John 1:1 and these reflection from the Zohar because the writers reject the Gospel. Their writings even prove what the Gospel says in John 1:1 to a certain degree even while they are simultaneously rejected. And, this passage does confirm to me that in some way we are oppressed in our understanding of what we call the Trinity and that it is possible to even gain a greater understanding on the subject before we go to meet the Lord from what is available for research today. On 6/4/2016 at 10:13 PM, TrevorL said: The following is a few extracts from a book “History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ" by A Reville, a French Professor of the History of Religion, written in 1904 and translated into English in 1905. I thought this might be of interest showing the development from a belief that Jesus I also enjoy the citations from this book and plan to get a copy myself for further study on the subject. Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted June 12, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) On 11/06/2016 at 3:49 PM, Joline said: Yes, you are correct. The trinity is about GODS NATURE, not mans. The Son has existed from all eternity with the father. He is BORN from the Father from all eternity. The incarnation of the Son, is distinct theology. You can look to Christology for that. The God man. this speaks to the nature of Christ. Therefore Christ being the Son of the Father and son of Man is twice born. Greetings Joline and Esther4:14, I was interested in your response, but most of this seems obscure to me. You seem to almost dismiss the humanity of Jesus. I am not sure that this is the average position of Trinitarians. 25 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said: I also enjoy the citations from this book and plan to get a copy myself for further study on the subject. I am not sure if it is a good book or not, but it seemed to answer how the doctrine of the Trinity developed. I am a collector of books and found this in a 2nd hand book sale. I have not studied this history at length. Joline, seeing that you seem to be familiar with some of the history of these doctrines, could I ask if you would agree that the brief summary of some of the developments mentioned in Page 8, Post 3 (linked by Esther) is a reasonable assessment? I asked the same of one of my brethren who studied the early centuries AD, and he agreed, but as he is more on my side of the fence, I would like to ask a Trinitarian’s opinion. The following is mainly to draw attention to the humanity of Jesus. This aspect is usually overlooked by Trinitarians even though they claim he was both human and divine, and remarkably claim that he had two natures, for example I have read “within Jesus’ unique nature He was both fully God and fully man”. I cannot understand the Trinitarian concept. Such a view must claim that Jesus when young had the mind of a child and the mind of God at the same time, or possibly that the mind of God was partly or fully suppressed until a certain age. This view must claim that Jesus was limited in knowledge, and yet knew all things. A greater list of contradictions could be compiled.The Birth of JesusMatthew 1:18-23 (KJV): 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Here is a simple and clear narrative. The child was conceived by the Holy Spirit, his name was to be called Jesus, and he would also be named Emmanuel. There is no mention of God the Son being somehow incorporated into the child to be born, but simply that the Holy Spirit was instrumental in the conception. The name Emmanuel may be taken by some to teach that the child is somehow God, and there is some Scriptural support and language to accept this, but I do not accept the Trinitarian version of this. On a simpler level it also teaches that the birth of Jesus would be evidence that God was now with them in the person of His Son, and Jesus would manifest or reveal His Father. (I cannot clear the complete underlining of the following, please excuse) Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Again here is a simple and clear narrative. Again it speaks of the child being conceived of the Holy Spirit, but here in a parallelism it speaks of this as the power of the Highest. The process would result in a "holy thing" and we could discuss what this represents, but will defer till another time. The child born "shall be called the Son of God" and earlier "the Son of the Highest", and these two expressions form another parallelism. Again there is no mention of God the Son being somehow incorporated into the child to be born, but simply that the Holy Spirit was instrumental in the conception. What these verses do indicate is that God is the Father of Jesus, and thus Jesus is "the Son of the Highest" and "the Son of God". These terms are contrary to the concept that Jesus is God the Son. Also there is no hint in either Matthew's and Luke's account that Jesus or the 2nd Person of the Trinity pre-existed. As a child is conceived and born today, unless you are a Mormon or a Buddhist and believe in some form of incarnation or reincarnation. It is to me remarkable, that Trinitarians speak of the incarnation. John 1:1-2 (KJV): 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.John 1:14 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Looking only at the birth of Jesus initially, there are two aspects. The first is that "the Word was made flesh" and this teaches that Jesus was not of Spirit Nature at birth, but he was of flesh nature. The second is "the only begotten of the Father" and this is similar to the Matthew and Luke records that teach that God was the Father of Jesus by means of the conception. The Development of Jesus Luke 2:40 (KJV): And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Although this speaks of Jesus' exceptional development, there is no hint that Jesus is God the Son. Such an idea ignores the fact that Jesus increased in wisdom, and increased in favour with God. From a Trinitarian perspective, what portion of Jesus' mind was from his education and growth, and how much is from his previous knowledge in being God the Son? Isaiah 11:1-5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. This again speaks of Jesus' exceptional development. Again this is inconsistent with the concept of God the Son, as Jesus developed in understanding. Isaiah 50:4 (KJV): The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. This indicates that God the Father instructed Jesus on a daily basis. This is contrary to the concept of God the Son. John 1:1-2 (KJV): 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.John 1:14 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Looking again at these verses there is an emphasis on the character of Christ, "he was "full of grace and truth". This speaks of the end result of the development of Jesus. He was no longer a babe in his mother's arms, nor a youth of 12 discussing with the elders in the Temple. When Jesus started his ministry John and others "beheld his glory", and this glory was the moral character that Jesus revealed, he was full of grace and truth. The following extract from one writer takes up portion of the 1st of the 4 Servant Songs of Isaiah, and speaks of the character of Christ: Christ of whom it was prophesied that “a bruised reed shall he not break and dimly burning flax shall he not quench”; who came to seek and save which was lost; who gave his life for men who were unrighteous and unthankful, and who continue to this day, with their vanity and self-expression, breaking the bruised reeds and quenching the smoking flax, often claiming to do such destructive work in His name – Christ came not to do His own will but the will of the One who sent Him. In His service to humanity He surrendered Himself entirely to God, and the result of this self-effacement was a human personality so strong and distinctive that it shines through history with a lustre that makes individualism of self-expressing men look dull and dirty. It is the last sentence above that I would especially mention. Could I ask a Trinitarian if they really consider the humanity of Jesus? Does a Trinitarian think in terms of the development of the character of Jesus? Or simply because of a belief that He is and was God during His ministry that there is no real place for the development of Jesus’ character.Kind regardsTrevor Edited June 12, 2016 by TrevorL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted June 12, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted June 12, 2016 6 hours ago, Esther4:14 said: Anyways, I was reading something interesting today related to this subject from The Zohar with regard to the presence of the word in the creation of the world. The Zohar says "Seeking to be revealed, to be named, it garbed itself in a splendid, radiant garment and created (elleh) these. (Elleh) attained the name: these letters joined with those, culminating in the name (Elohim). Until it created (ellah), it did not attain the name (Elohim). Based on this mystery, those who sinned with the Golden Calf said (Elleh), These are your gods, O Israel!' (Exodus 32:8). Just as is combined with (elleh), so the name (Elohim) is constantly polysemous. Through this mystery, the universe exists." (page 8 Zohar Pritzker Edition). Greetings again Esther4:14, I appreciate your response and encouragement. Nevertheless I find the articles that you quoted unusual and do not seem to have much relevance to the Scriptures. I have done some preliminary research into the meaning and usage of the word “Elohim” in the OT Scriptures, but the above extract seems to be very speculative and contrary to the revealed word of God. You seem to be quoting some Rabbinical work, and to my understanding they reject Jesus as their Messiah. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts