What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[Mike 2]

On 1/8/2017 at 0:33 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

 We read in the scriptures that Jesus Christ did not have the same authority before the Cross as he is having now and since the time after the Cross and the resurrection .  

After the Cross and the resurrection he said,  "ALL authority is given to me on Heaven and Earth", 

After the Cross and the resurrection , the Heavenly Father gave him the Throne and everything the Father had, and there is nothing that the Father had and he did not give it to him,  and he made him the Lord of Lords , the Judge over all. 

ALL the powers of the Heavenly Father are now vested in Jesus Christ. 

closest friend, here are my thoughts;

I agree with you that Jesus did say that after the resurrection

Mat_28:18  Then Jesus came up and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ...But....

......He was repeating himself, probably to drive home his authority and something he said about the "Helper" that would become clearer after the resurrection,

Here's what he is repeating... 

Joh 13:1  Now before the Passover Festival, Jesus realized that his hour had come to leave this world and return to the Father. Having loved his own

who were in the world, he loved them to the end. 
Joh 13:2  By supper time, the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray him. 
Joh 13:3  Because Jesus knew that the Father had given everything into his control, that he had come from God, and that he was returning to God, 

This is taking place during Passover before the cross, Jesus already had everything in his control.

He goes on to confirm it.....

Joh 17:1  After Jesus had said this, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you. 
Joh 17:2  For you have given him authority over all humanity so that he might give eternal life to all those you gave him.

In the above Jesus was praying in the garden before the crucifixion. 

The powers of the Father always were vested in Jesus but as an incarnate human he chose to do the work of the Father as the Messiah and bring the message of the Gospel that we too could have a close intimate relationship with the Father.

On 1/8/2017 at 0:33 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

And a strange thing happened, when the Shadow of Peter fell upon the sick , they were healed. 

And another strange thing happened later on, 

The people put the handkerchiefs Paul had used to wiped his swet and placed them on the sick and they were healed. 

What is it happening , how can you apply Jonh 5:19, in these examples. 

I really don't want to go off topic here but there is some relevance in that the Son, that part of the trinity who interacts with the physical was telling/ teaching us (man) about the next, intimate step in our relationship with God. In the context of the discussion of the trinity as it pertains to your question I'm looking at the following....

Joh 16:19  Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him a question, so he asked them, "Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will no longer see me, then in a little while you will see me again'? .......
.....Joh 16:23  On that day, you will not ask me for anything. Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you ask the Father for in my name, he will give it to you. 

In saying this Jesus is  saying that in the future we will not be asking him (Jesus) for anything,  things will still be coming from the Father.  He is alluding to the coming of the Holy Spirit that will allow communication with the Father for all men (1 Cor 2:12) .

Joh 16:26  At that time, you will make your requests in my name, so that I will have no need to ask the Father on your behalf, 

Jesus went on to tell them how that would happen...

Joh_15:26  "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. 

Joh 16:13  Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own accord, but will speak whatever he hears and will declare to you the things that are to come. 
Joh 16:14  He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 
Joh 16:15  All that the Father has is mine (he is not saying "will be mine", it already is). That is why I said, 'He will take what is mine and declare it to you.' 

This all makes sense if we accept that the Father, Holy Spirit and Son are within and are God and as such are one.

In response to your question above .." what is happening" in regards to the Apostles.  

Jesus says to the Father in Joh 17:18  Just as you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 

Just as the Holy Spirit was with the Son so that he could do the work of the Father in the world so too he is with the disciples Jesus is speaking of.

Joh 17:20  I ask not only on behalf of these men, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their message, 
Joh 17:21  so that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

 Joh 20:22  When he had said this, he breathed on them and told them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 
Joh 20:23  If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people's sins, they are retained."  

Act 2:2  Suddenly, a sound like the roar of a mighty windstorm came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 
Act 2:3  They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated, and one rested on each of them. 
Act 2:4  All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them that ability. 

Now we, you and I and any one that believes in Jesus receives the Holy Spirit and then we become sons of God, we become the visible face of "Jesus" in the world.

2Co_6:18  I will be your Father, and you will be my sons and daughters," declares the Lord Almighty. 

Obviously, because it was a new revelation from God, to drive the point home that the Holy Spirit is active, at Pentecost God draws attention to that by making it visibly obvious with tongues like flames on all those that received. Today we don't see that because we now understand that we will see the results of God's Spirit in the fruits of the persons spirit.

I believe He also chose to do tremendous miracles through apostles and believers, the new sons and daughters, like you described above for the same reason, to draw attention to the Gospel, just like the Son did when He walked the earth as Jesus.

This is done "in Jesus name" over and over again and the power comes from the Father, through the indwelling Holy Spirit....through the believers, the sons of God.

Jesus said...Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you ask the Father for in my name, he will give it to you. 

John and Peter meet a cripple at the gate to the temple.

Act 3:6  However, Peter said, "I don't have any silver or gold, but I'll give you what I do have. In the name of Jesus the Messiah from Nazareth, walk!" 
They go on to preach the Gospel as a result.
I think to go further with this particular line of discussion we would be drawn away from the topic of this thread which is the trinity.

On 1/8/2017 at 0:33 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

Do you believe that the Son of God who is the Lord of Lords, and he has all authority in Heaven and earth, because the Father gave to him ALL the authority, not before the Cross but after the Cross. Does the Son of God he still can not do anything by him self, 

Based on what I have drawn out of the bible above and based on what the Son who cannot lie says below.....

Joh 5:19  Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise.

...... I am going to default to what the bible says in John.

This has a powerful implication when we consider that WE are sons of God. (if you have accepted the Christ)

On 1/8/2017 at 0:33 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

I have another big example, but I am careful not to say it as not to offend you.

I would be interested in reading anything biblical that you can show me to correct any misunderstanding I may have or to better understand your point of view. 

How God is made up doesn't change. Just because the Son is no longer here in the body of Jesus does not mean that God changed. Now... how God interacts with man (Dispensations) does change and that's what we see through the arrival of Jesus that brought us to today.

I believe the Son, through the Holy Spirit, sees the Father and does his will. All three are defined as the trinity that make up God.

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Mike 2

[Limey_Bob]

I gave up on attending religious buildings several years ago, after being told during an Alpha group meeting in an Elim Church (Plymouth Christian Center, in Devon in the UK) a denomination which is supposedly a Trinitarian denomination that;

 

(1) Jesus is God the Father, which I immediately pointed out was modalism.

 

(2) Jesus did not make his atonement on the cross, but in hell. I again pointed out that this is a popular Christian TV heresy called JDS - Jesus died spiritually in hell by offering a sacrifice to satan)!

 

The woman in charge of the entire Alpha course refused to condemn the other Alpha table leader, I called over a passing church elder but he refused to get involved. I wrote twice to the two female leaders and then twice to the Church pastor (Reverend Lee) but none of them even replied to my letters. I wrote to John Glass the Elim Church General Superintendent, he wrote two lines promising to look into this, but he never got back to me. So sadly, I now refuse to attend any church building, the Trinity is widely misinterpreted as either modalism or tri-theism (three gods) here in the UK. Many so-called Christians are functionally anti-Trinitarian, just as much so as any Jehovah's Witness,  as for the new Covenant, few evangelical Christians here in the UK seem to be able to define it. So what is the point in my going to some Church building, when nobody is going to listen to me, or be willing to even discuss the Bible with me, my mere suggestion to discuss the Bible over a cup of coffee, makes these unteachable and uncorrectable people very angry?

 

The church here in the UK is in such a state of dire complete apostasy, partly due to the effects of GOD TV which is also based here in Plymouth, that few people are teaching the historic Trinity / New Covenant which Evangelical Churches, will strongly affirm on their own web sites and also in their own doctrinal statements of faith! How sad, what a disgrace to Christ's gospel which he died for, that most Evangelical Christians here in the UK don't know and don't care about who God is, who Christ is and what the New Covenant is. When I meet people who call themselves born-again or evangelical  Christians, I ask them three questions: Who or what is God (trinity), Who is Christ (I've been told everything from Jesus is the Father, and that Jesus only had one single spirit, but no human spirit etc), and finally what is the New Covenant. The answers which I have received have been lamentable, yet if you try to help these people, then because they claim to know God personally, they'll condemn you for judging, or worse, that I have a demon inside my body who is using me to ask them difficult questions! Male Christians know more about the soccer teams than Christian doctrine, and Christian women seem to love clothes and know more about TV soap stars than their Bibles. I weep for the dire state of the church here in the UK, no wonder Islam is rapidly taking over in leaps and bounds.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[simplejeff]

Islam and Isis is all a distraction from the [far more dangerous, far greater]power that sought to take over the world all along (even since before JESUS birth and resurrection and ascension);   the one world church (and the power behind it) that's been the most powerful entity of men on earth for centuries...  that has caused all the leaders of the nations to commit fornication, as written in SCRIPTURE.

As for the religious buildings -  it looks like not one brick will be left upon another,  soon.    The form of religion without the power thereof ,  JESUS spoke of.

[Mike 2]

7 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

So what is the point in my going to some Church building, when nobody is going to listen to me, or be willing to even discuss the Bible with me, my mere suggestion to discuss the Bible over a cup of coffee, makes these unteachable and uncorrectable people very angry?

Bob the best fishing hole is where they are looking for food.

Sounds like you may be challenging the "theologians" rather than teaching the seekers. Our Lord didn't have much luck with them either (at least the biggies).

I heard a preacher say "if you can't pick the fruit, don't bruise it".

Skip that topic with the ones that aren't ready to hear it and talk to those that are.

I find the best way to relate to the Trinity is to explain how we are made in the image of God. We have our own deep thoughts, we have our spirit and we have that part of us that interacts with the physical (1 Cor. 2:9-14). With that understanding, it is a lot easier to grasp the Trinity and how it easily has the biggest influence in our lives.

An additional benefit of understanding that is being able to grasp how and why we mess up and sin, ever try to understand what the heck Paul is saying in Romans 7:13-24.

I think you should get back in the boat and row on over to a fishing hole somewhere....doesn't matter where....plenty of fish.

Sounds like you have challenging times....hope you find tons of joy in letting the Spirit lead you when you drop anchor.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Mike 2

[Mike 2]

On 1/4/2017 at 1:23 PM, other one said:

the Father was not the old testament God of Israel....     Moses tells us that he, Aaron and 72 other people saw the God of Israel, and Jesus said that no one had ever seen the Father.....    Jesus himself was the old testament God of Israel as John tells us that he was in the form of God before he set that azide and lowered himself to be human.....    and when he was to ascend he had prayed that the Father would give him the Glory he had before when they had been together.

It doesn't seem possible to say that the Father became Jesus, though Jesus had direct spiritual lines to the Father the whole time he was here until the cross where he asked why the Father had forsaken him.....   when he took on all our sin.

There has always been the three of them working as one since before time and always will be.

I am looking at this much later, I don't mean to belabor a point but I should try to clarify myself.

First I want to make it clear that I am not saying the Father changed into the Son. 
This is what I mean when I say we have to be specific when we are talking about Jesus and what aspect of him we are referring to..the Messiah?, the Son of God?, Jesus the body?  In the above quote it appears that you have referred to "Jesus" in 2 different ways, one spiritually and the other physically. If we are not specific in our understanding of these it  can be confusing when trying to understand Jesus in light of the Trinity. What I am saying is that the Father decided to become incarnate, become physical.

If I write Father, Holy Spirit and Son on a piece of paper, draw a circle around them then label the circle "GOD"  that would show me that the name of the three of them together is God. God is made up of the 3 of them.

God IS NOT some 4th thing. I think that's where people get confused.

God is made up of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All things come from the Father through the Holy Spirit, through the Son who brings it into the physical.  Jesus saying the Son does nothing without first seeing the Father doing it (through the Holy Spirit) makes this clear.

When we see the Son as we do in Jesus we see all 3 in 1, we see God.  The God we see in the Old Testament was also all 3 working together but manifest in the physical in a different way. God interacting in the physical is all 3 working together. In the O.T. we just see the manifestation in the physical (the Word) in different ways. In the N.T. it so happens "the Word became flesh." When we think of the Son of God we should not limit our thoughts to how the Son of God appears in the form of the body of Jesus.

I cannot experience the Father without the Holy Spirit. In that sense I am experiencing God at work spiritually, the reality is that I am experiencing a direct, spiritual relationship with the Father. We come to call that a "God" experience but it is the Father I am relating with through the Holy Spirit.

I cannot experience the Father in the physical without the Holy Spirit and the Son (that part that interacts with the physical). When that physical interaction happens with us ....we call that a "God" experience as well and again it is the Father I am relating to through the physical manner he has chosen , still through the Son who sees it through the Holy Spirit. That's why we are called "Sons" of God....his Holy Spirit can now work through us into the physical, our spirit sees what to do through the Spirit of God.

In the bible the make up of God was not fully understood (some might argue revealed) until the New Testament, but it was always the Father working through the Holy Spirit directly into a mans spirit or , through the Holy Spirit, through the Son into the physical, then, as he perceives it, into a mans spirit. Think of Moses and the burning bush. That would be identified as "God" at work. In reality, it was the Fathers will on earth as it is in heaven.

So it is possible that Moses and the other 72 saw "God", but what they would have seen if it was physical would have been that part of God (of the trinity) that interacts in the physical.....the Word / Son becoming..... visible.

It would have been the Son doing the Fathers will.

I don't know if I have explained my thinking but if you understand what I am saying here you can understand how I can say; 

"The Father, before time had the plan to become incarnate as Jesus "the Christ" when the timing was perfect."

 

  

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Mike 2

[Your closest friendnt]

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

I gave up on attending religious buildings several years ago, after being told during an Alpha group meeting in an Elim Church (Plymouth Christian Center, in Devon in the UK) a denomination which is supposedly a Trinitarian denomination that;

 I do not use specific names and locations. 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

(1) Jesus is God the Father, which I immediately pointed out was modalism.

I want to know something about Jesus. 

modalism,  maybe, but first JESUS CHRIST, why they called him,   "the CHRIST "

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

(2) Jesus did not make his atonement on the cross, but in hell. I again pointed out that this is a popular Christian TV heresy called JDS - Jesus died spiritually in hell by offering a sacrifice to satan)!

I don't believe you heard this statement in an Alpha meeting. 

They give you a study book , that has a biblical knowledge of JESUS CHRIST ,

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

The woman in charge of the entire Alpha course refused to condemn the other Alpha table leader, I called over a passing church elder but he refused to get involved. I wrote twice to the two female leaders and then twice to the Church pastor (Reverend Lee) but none of them even replied to my letters. I wrote to John Glass the Elim Church General Superintendent, he wrote two lines promising to look into this, but he never got back to me. So sadly, I now refuse to attend any church building,

It is better this way, you do not interfear with them, and they leave you alone.

next time go for the food, and friendship.

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

the Trinity is widely misinterpreted

 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

as either modalism

Nice word ,  sounds like "model", 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

or tri-theism

 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

(three gods)

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

here in the UK. Many so-called Christians are functionally anti-Trinitarian, just as much so as any Jehovah's Witness,  as for the

 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

new Covenant,

Tell something what is the new Covenant.

If you say new then we must have an old one, 

 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

few evangelical Christians here in the UK seem to be able to define it. So what is the point in my going to some Church building, when nobody is going to listen to me, or be willing to even discuss the Bible with me, my mere suggestion to discuss the Bible over a cup of coffee, makes these unteachable and uncorrectable people very angry?

The church here in the UK is in such a state of dire complete apostasy, partly due to the effects of GOD TV which is also based here in Plymouth, that few people are teaching the historic Trinity / New Covenant which Evangelical Churches, will strongly affirm on their own web sites and also in their own doctrinal statements of faith! How sad, what a disgrace to Christ's gospel which he died for, that most Evangelical Christians here in the UK don't know and don't care about who God is, who Christ is and what the New Covenant is. When I meet people who call themselves born-again or evangelical  Christians, I ask them three questions: Who or what is God (trinity), Who is Christ (I've been told everything from Jesus is the Father, and that Jesus only had one single spirit, but no human spirit etc), and finally what is the New Covenant. The answers which I have received have been lamentable, yet if you try to help these people, then because they claim to know God personally, they'll condemn you for judging, or worse, that I have a demon inside my body who is using me to ask them difficult questions! 

Hope you don't say this for me.

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Male Christians know more about the soccer teams than Christian doctrine, and Christian women seem to love clothes and know more about TV soap stars than their Bibles.

This  is your complain and is not doctrinal material. 

13 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

I weep for the dire state of the church here in the UK, no wonder Islam is rapidly taking over in leaps and bounds.

Hello Liemybob, I read your post, and I need to read it again and again, just to stop thinking on what I think you are saying , but to understand what you want to say, even if I have to read sometimes between the lines. 

So I stand to be corrected. 

I understand how frastrated you may be, that you just want to discuss about Jesus Christ, but you found out this is the last thing, of all the people in the world, that the Christian do not want to discuss. 

Jesus already knows that, the Lord may wants you to discuss things with him. 

I have a reason why I say that to you, I found out, they way JESUS was walking with and among his disciples and the people, the same way he is walking among those people who do not understand you, but inspite of knowing everything about them . Jesus is keeping his peace, and he is looking how to express his love to them, as they are, if not when is he going to do it? 

That's what JESUS is asking from us. 

He wants us to be at peace with them who know a little.

Those people are his children, and if he does not love them, who will.

I never say to any one, words that are invented and have a doctrinal interpretation the size of book, so I never use the word ("Trinity", or "reincarnation", or "modalist",) ......

Those words may deceived the user, because they ment to. 

Take for example, two people just met, and are both very happy because they just found out they are both _ _ _ _  and they may found out later that they use the same _ _ _ _ but the give it a different twist, and they are not in the same page anymore . 

Just to stay in the subject. 

Do you understand why Paul emphasizes repeatedly that the Savior must be a man.

And Moses said exactly the same thing, and JESUS, and the prophets,  

Another question. 

Has the Father ever come down to Earth. 

What happened to the Holy Spirit when Jesus died. 

try not to stereotype me, and filtered me through the lens of .....What ever 

Be of good chears, JESUS still loves them. 

God bless

 

[Limey_Bob]

16 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Bob the best fishing hole is where they are looking for food.

Sounds like you may be challenging the "theologians" rather than teaching the seekers. Our Lord didn't have much luck with them either (at least the biggies).

I heard a preacher say "if you can't pick the fruit, don't bruise it".

Skip that topic with the ones that aren't ready to hear it and talk to those that are.

I find the best way to relate to the Trinity is to explain how we are made in the image of God. We have our own deep thoughts, we have our spirit and we have that part of us that interacts with the physical (1 Cor. 2:9-14). With that understanding, it is a lot easier to grasp the Trinity and how it easily has the biggest influence in our lives.

An additional benefit of understanding that is being able to grasp how and why we mess up and sin, ever try to understand what the heck Paul is saying in Romans 7:13-24.

I think you should get back in the boat and row on over to a fishing hole somewhere....doesn't matter where....plenty of fish.

Sounds like you have challenging times....hope you find tons of joy in letting the Spirit lead you when you drop anchor.

 

Hello Mike, my position which I've come to after 32 years of my Christian walk is that the vast majority of people within the institutional church where I live in the UK are deceived and probably unsaved, i.e. false believers. I am not saying that every single person inside a church building is lost, but here in the UK where I live, it is almost impossible to find people who believe and teach accurately (1) Trinity  (2) The person and work of Christ.   (3) New Covenant - as many churches local to me add tithing (from the Old Covenant) to the gospel.  As I am implacable as to the truthfulness and necessity of these three doctrines: Trinity, an accurate view of Christ and New Covenant, for that reason I no longer attend any fellowship, with the massive influence of GOD TV and doctrines such as the New Apostolic Reformation, and Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Church so influential in so many  local fellowships, I'd be asked to leave pretty quickly anyway! One lesson I've learn't is that nobody thinks, looks critically or tests by the Bible in so many churches, if you go in quoting the Bible and asking questions then they'll kick you out asap!

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[Limey_Bob]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I don't believe you heard this statement in an Alpha meeting. 

They give you a study book , that has a biblical knowledge of JESUS CHRIST ,

The leaders on this Alpha course seemed to make stuff up as they went along, few if anybody (other than me) checked things out and I give you my word that I was told on this Alpha course that:   1. Jesus is God the Father      2. Jesus did not make an atonement for sin on the cross but in hell. Several people from GOD TV were on this course, and it's obvious that in the table discussion, what people had heard was simply repeated. As for the Alpha literature, the trouble is that if a leader is too immature to really understand the material, then they are going to speak in an off the cuff way and that is clearly what happened. Is it any wonder that here in the UK people are leaving the institutional Church for Islam and Atheism in droves.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[theQuestion]

The Catholic-Fabricated Trinity Dogma is the Biggest Farce ever perpetrated!

[HAZARD]

2 minutes ago, theQuestion said:

The Catholic-Fabricated Trinity Dogma is the Biggest Farce ever perpetrated!

I found three separate beings in Scripture in my Bible who are "ONE in unity.

The Word, John 1:1 Who was God, and who was with God, He divested Himself of all His power and glory and became a man so He could die on the cross for our sins. He was raised by the Father in His glorified flesh and bone body, which still carries the scars of His beating and death, forever.

Raised flesh and bones; Luke. 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 

While still on Earth, before He ascended into Heaven He said to His disciples; John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Scars for ever; Zec. 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 

His power and glory which He had before He became man was restored to Him after he returned to Heaven and sits at His Fathers right hand.

John. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.