What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, Tony Hyman said:

I must admit that what I am about to posit is more at home with "Apologetics" but nevertheless, I believe, finding an application here as well I have not read all the posts and beg forgiveness for any duplication that I may be guilty of. The most user-friendly way of understanding the Trinity, I find, is simply "not to understand it".This is okay if one is  in Christian circles where all are unanimous in accepting this "mystery" which Easton Bible Dictionary defines inter alia as, "The calling of the Gentiles into the Christian Church, so designated (Eph_1:9, Eph_1:10; Eph_3:8-11; Col_1:25-27); a truth undiscoverable except by revelation, long hid, now made manifest. The resurrection of the dead (1Co_15:51), and other doctrines which need to be explained but which cannot be fully understood by finite intelligence (Mat_13:11; Rom_11:25; 1Co_13:2);..."

But now the challenge arises how does one explain this to a non-believer or all others as in "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have...with gentleness and respect" (New International Version. 1 Pet.3:15) and as far as respecting or honoring others in  their beliefs "Honor(timao, my insert) all men.Love(agapeo, my insert) the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."(King James Bible,I Pet 2:17)

Now it is with this aspect and in the context of Peters guidelines, that I had to face a Jehova Witness whom I must admit "bowled" me out at that time, on this aspect of the "mystery" of The Trinity.He actually confronted I never tried to convert him.His"trick" was to confront me with "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven. nor the Son, but only the Father."(New International Version.Mt 24:36). Now, this was a while back before I became a little more Christian streetwise. Regarding the Trinity he argued in words to the following effect "You say that Christ and God are one and that has always been that way since the beginning (Jn 1:1) right?If this is the case how is it possible that the "nor the Son"(Mt 24:36) does not know when the "end of the age" will be?

All I could think of, and my best shot was that old Sunday School song, "because the Bible tells me so".I shamefully admit that I also wondered about this aspect. However, the Holy Spirit came to my rescue which I think could prove quite useful for others who might also find themselves in the same position but this little bit of advice might help to send the ball well and hard into the opponent's court with all due "respect" . Hershel Hobbs offers this explanation, which I believe to be perfectly plausible in terms of "always be ready"(I Pet 3:15) under similar circumstance as shown above. He exposits in the context of Mark's gospel 13;32-37 , "How may we understand this expression of Jesus about His own lack of knowledge concerning the day and hour of His return? While insisting upon His deity we must not ignore His humanity. It was in this latter light that He spoke these words. In His incarnation He assumed certain limitations which are a part of complete humanity,apart from sin.Indeed sin is not a part of humanity as God intended it.And in His perfect humanity Jesus said, 'My doctrine[teaching]is not mine,but his that sent me' (John 7:16).

Again, ' The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise' (John 5:19).The heart of our answer is found in John 8:26,28. ' I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him...I do nothing of myself; but as the Father hath taught me ,I speak these things.The incarnation was a fact, but it is ever a mystery to finite minds.So in the Father's good pleasure.He had not 'taught'the day and hour of Jesus'return.It is governed by condition. When the condition is right that will be the time.And while the triune God knows when the condition will obtain,the Father during the incarnation did not reveal it. It is that which is set in the mind of the Father (Acts 1:7)"(Hobbs An Exposition of The Gospel of Mark.208)I hope this might prove useful to others who might also "fall prey" similar to the incident I encountered.

 

 

 

Thank you for the your comments. 

People ask many questions, and we have to admit that we try to have them digest things on our menu that the disciples of Jesus Christ did not offered. 

They did not use some of the terms you are refering to; 

I have people other than Christians asking me questions as the likes of. 

What the disciples had to say about this and that;

Did not the people of that time asked the questions that we are facing today and we cannot find a way to explain it and not just to their satisfaction but also to ours. 

Past is the time when to just to ask a question they burned the -rebellious person-the one who inquired on the stick.. 

What about during the time before this practice, the time from the beginning of the Gospel and during the prosecution, which time people could inquired without the fear of being burned or exocomunicated.

During the apostolic times we did not have this kind of contention, but also at the same time the disciples were very careful not to use terms that divide. 

Could this be the solution to the problem we face today, that we have the scholars who by promoting their intelectual wishful terms they meant to seperate the goats from the sheeps within their cogregation. 

To seperate those who give them their unquestionable support from those who dare to think. 

They create a situation and they ask the people bow down to it, or we will throw you to the lions. 

Perhaps we need to take a look how the disciples present the Gospel conserning these matters that as a result did not create these kinds of frictions. 

Even Jesus Christ before the Cross said somethings that meant for the time before the Cross. 

He never Judge any Gentile from the nations around the world, and he never visit the other nations of the world.

He said "I have come for the Jews only". 

And at the same time he said that he is the one to Judge the whole world, and the secret thoughts of anyone in the world.

Saying that he is the one chosen for this position and no anyone else. 

Butvat the same time he could not do that , for the obvious reason that he was not appointed and given that authority yet. 

That will happen later on not before he died and raised from the dead and the Heavenly Father glorified him and sitted him on the HEAVENLY THRONE, and giving him everything he had and the Holy Spirit...

His time on the earth as to what he was , is time past, everything for him has become New.

As it is the same as an adult the time of his youth is a time past.

The same his time infancy and ignorance as to who he was is time past.

Who he was before his birth it was not known to him as an infant and he did not have this knowledge that time but later on we see that he stopped calling Josef his Father and said "my Father in Heavens, I must do his will". 

The glory he has now it was his even as a infant, but he had not die yet in full obedience to earn it.

As he said if I do not die nothing will be accoblish. 

Now he can say "I have the keys of Hades and Death... and every Knee shall bow down to me". 

"Everything is given unto me", 

Everything we need is with Jesus, he has everything we need. 

[JohnD]

On 12/2/2018 at 12:04 PM, RevelationWriter said:

Acts 5:3 "...lie to The Holy Spirit."

Acts 5:4 "...lied to God."

* Acts 5:9 "...agreed together to Test The Spirit Of The Lord."

Titus 2:13 - "...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and savior Jesus Christ." - (NKJ)

* Titus 2:13 - "...looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ." (Greek)

If 'The Holy Spirit OF God' IS God, then how come no one in the bible Ever Worshiped The Holy Spirit AS God?

Instead They Worshiped God IN The Spirit Of His Holiness. 

John 4:24 (NASB95)
24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
 

[FresnoJoe]

On 10/15/2018 at 1:53 AM, Eha said:

But then Jesus called Holy Spirit "HIM"!!!!

and btw, PLEASE use some common logic!!!!!!!!

HOW CAN YOU INSULT SOME THING?????

so stop here and now, before its not too late

Isaiah 63:10

But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit

HOW CAN WE MAKE SAD SOME THING???????????????

Matthew 12:32

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the HolySpirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

HERE JESUS PUT HOLY SPIRIT IN THE SAME LINE AS HIMSELF AND FATHER!!!!!!!

AND FULL ACTS ARE ABOUT, HOW HOLY SPIRIT LEADED, RESISTED, ASKED, TOLD AND SO ON.

IN OLD TESTAMENT HOLY SPIRIT WAS IN RAGE AND MADE DECISION!!!!!!!!! WITHOUT FATHER OR SON - HE HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS AND FATHER AND SON CHERISH HIM SO MUCH, THAT IS ONE SIN NEVER FORGIVEN - INSULTING HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!!

people, i suggest something - ask God to give you wisdom. and eyes. and ears.

 

On 10/15/2018 at 3:24 PM, Mike 2 said:

I'm curious why you say just HOLY SPIRIT instead of THE Holy Spirit like the bible does?

 

On 10/30/2018 at 2:51 PM, Eha said:

BECAUSE OF BAD ENGLISH, WHICH ISN'T MY NATIVE LANGUAGE?
anyway, i leave this forum, so just ignore me.

Holy Ghost =

That good thing which was committed to you keep by the Holy Ghost which dwells in us. 2 Timothy 1:14 (American King James Version)

Holy Spirit =

until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. Acts 1:2 ( New International Version

Holy God

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 1 Corinthians 2:10 (English Standard Version)

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

[appy]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:36 AM, Hands On said:

But now the challenge arises how does one explain this to a non-believer or all others as in "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have...with gentleness and respect" (New International Version. 1 Pet.3:15) and as far as respecting or honoring others in  their beliefs "Honor(timao, my insert) all men.Love(agapeo, my insert) the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."(King James Bible,I Pet 2:17)

A unbeliever will never understand the teaching and concept of the trinity without one important factor. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Because it is He who reveals this to us. Yes the bible teaches that there is only one God. God is in heaven and man is on earth so our understanding of him and all he is. . . is limited. No matter how smart we humans are; we can never fully understand it because we are earthly humans who are talking about heavenly things. Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. This is to mean and say Jesus is fully man and fully God at the same time. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence but only ONE God. These verses speak of the trinity.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned

 

John 10:30 I and the Father are one

Isaiah 48: 16 – 17 "Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go.

Matthew 3;16 - 17 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Matthew 28: 18-19 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 14:24-26 These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Hebrews 1: 1-3 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

[HAZARD]

The word "ONE" means one in unity as well as one in number. It means "Unity" in John 5:7, as it does in John 17:11; 21-23, and yet these three persons, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, are spoken of as one each in number and individuality in Scripture. There is One God the Father, One Lord Jesus Christ, and One Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:3-6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality. The Father is called God (1 Cor. 8:6), the Son is called God (Isa. 9:6-7; Heb. 1:8; John 1:1-2; 20:28), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4). As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or plural word, like SHEEP>

Everything that could be spoken of God collectively applies equally to each member of the Godhead as an individual but there are some things that are said of each person of the Deity as to position, office, and work that could be spoken as of the other members of the Godhead. The Father is the head of Christ (1 Cor. 11:3); the Son is the only begotten of the Father (2 John 3), and the Holy Ghost proceeds from both the Father and the Son (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Acts 2:34).

[Mike 2]

At the very beginning God told us we were made in His image (Gen. 1:27). Why in the world would He then make it so hard for us to understand how that is so? All the evidence of how we are made in his image must be in the first 27 verses of the bible!

Creating from a thought and into the physical is something we all do. There is a process and there are good and bad choices.

I don't think it is Him but rather, it is us that have made this difficult. It is our willingness not to transgress the rules that we have had made up for so long because.....well, look at the people of Jesus time that believed all the religious rules, because they didn't want to be rejected by the theologians of the time. Catch is thousands of those rules were created.... by men, trying to better explain the scriptures. And they confused the heck out of it! Jesus was the only one that would stand up and state the obvious....they got it wrong.

And, yep, they killed him

I'm still having a problem with the use of the word "persons" particularly in the way it is understood today compared to it's original created meaning for the purpose of defining the trinity. I would think that a definition of the trinity should create an understanding of God and not all the confusion that we see around what was determined 2000 years ago and was to be accepted under penalty of persecution or even death.

Rather than think outside the man made box to find a better understanding we just say....it's a mystery. We are talking about us being made in His image, I have to believe God wants us to understand how that is, in fact, I believe having an understanding of that not only helps us understand how and why we sin, but how God helps us change our ways.

When we refer to the Father as God, the Son as God or the Holy Spirit as God it is making it clear that we are not talking about the Father, Son or Holy Spirit of anything else but God.

The 3 of them together make up God. God cannot be whole, cannot be completely God if one of them is missing. The Holy Spirit and the Father by themselves are not the full representation, they fully represent God and nothing else. No different than a piece of apple pie is apple pie but is not the pie (whole) because the pie can only exist if it is together as one. As a result, any time we refer to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, we are referring to God, we are referring to.........Him (God). That is why we read the Holy Spirit is "Him"

Only the Son is the full representation of God and that is only seen in the physical in whichever way He chooses. Whenever God has manifest in the past, whether as a burning bush, a finger on the wall, a talking donkey, pillar of fire etc. we see the full deity at work, the Fathers will, through the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.2:11 In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit) to the Son who creates in the physical. Many of us call that Jesus working in the past, but the reality is it's the Word, the Son creating out of the Fathers will in heaven. Being born out of God into the physical. All 3 are working together.

In regards to Jesus we see the Word made flesh (John 1:14), the full deity (Col. 2:9) "(KJV)  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." 

I often wonder about the reference in the man made creeds to the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son and how that was determined.

Hazard, do you have any other references that would support the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son. The ones you have given, in context seem to indicate that the Son is asking the Father to send the Holy Spirit. I'd really like to get a different perspective from mine that although the Holy Spirit is like a "go between" from God He originates only from the Father (the thoughts of God) to His Son(s).

Edited January 4, 2019 by Mike 2

[HAZARD]

Quote

"

Hazard, do you have any other references that would support the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son. The ones you have given, in context seem to indicate that the Son is asking the Father to send the Holy Spirit. I'd really like to get a different perspective from mine that although the Holy Spirit is like a "go between" from God He originates only from the Father (the thoughts of God) to His Son(s)."

Hi Mike 2.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 

Later in John 15:26 Jesus says;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 

Edited January 4, 2019 by HAZARD

[Mike 2]

3 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Mike 2.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 

Later in John 15:26 Jesus says;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 

Hmmm,

Although John 14:26 seems to indicate the Holy Spirit coming from the Father.

John 15:26 seems to be rather strongly stating that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, so much so that I would have to see something that definitely says "proceeds from the Son" as well

There's got to be something strong that would compel the writers of the creeds to make the statement they have.

 

[HAZARD]

3 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

Hmmm,

Although John 14:26 seems to indicate the Holy Spirit coming from the Father.

John 15:26 seems to be rather strongly stating that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, so much so that I would have to see something that definitely says "proceeds from the Son" as well

There's got to be something strong that would compel the writers of the creeds to make the statement they have.

 

The Father has given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son because the Father has given all things to the Son, including the procession of the Holy Spirit.

[Mike 2]

1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

The Father has given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son because the Father has given all things to the Son, including the procession of the Holy Spirit.

You've given me some reasoning to consider.

I'll do that in view of John 14:26, 16: 14-15

Thanks