more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[enoob57]

Because we are in the anatomy of The Greatest Work of eternity= salvation of the beloved of God;
we must know already it cannot be summed in the instance but will in fact require the eternity
of God as the mantle of worship for what He Has Performed in The Purity of Himself! Love, Steven

[angels4u]

38 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I think it is important to note that nothing about the 5 points of Calvinism are in the Bible.  There is nothing in the Bible about election being unconditional, nothing in the Bible about the atonement being only efficacious for the unconditionally elect, nothing in the Bible about man being so totally depraved that he must be regenerated first before he can receive or answer the call to salvation, nothing about grace being irresistible.  None of that is there.   The problem with perseverance is that it is predicated on those other four principles and not really on the faithfulness of God.

I believe in eternal security, but not for the reasons that the Calvinists do.  I believe we are eternally secure because God is faithful to His promises.  We are secure because God is not going to change his mind tomorrow and decide to revoke salvation and the Gospel.

Jesus, always brought people to a point of decision.  They always had to make a choice.  The rich young ruler, Pilate, Judas, and others.  Jesus always gave people the freedom to accept or reject Him.    The Holy Spirit convicts us, but we decide what we do with that.  We are shown our sin, and we are given the Gospel as the remedy, but it is up to us to accept that remedy.  Nothing is imposed on us at all.

Calvinism is a theological teaching, but it is not really biblical teaching.  And Calvin was a lawyer and was trained as a lawyer not a theologian.  His "Institutes" were not the product of a long and deep abiding relationship with the Lord, but were written within just a couple of years of his conversion to Christianity from Catholicism. 

I am not a pure Arminian in that strict Arminianism believes that salvation can be lost.

 

 

Thanks for your reply:

I agree very much with everything you said, one thing I like to ask is why is the reason for you to believe ones saved always saved different then the Calvinist  view?

1 Cor. 1:8

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

[angels4u]

5 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Because we are in the anatomy of The Greatest Work of eternity= salvation of the beloved of God;
we must know already it cannot be summed in the instance but will in fact require the eternity
of God as the mantle of worship for what He Has Performed in The Purity of Himself! Love, Steven

 

Which of the 5  points would you agree with Enoob?

( Don't answer if it's too personal for you )

 

Praise God for Salvation,the biggest gift we can receive !

 

[enoob57]

43 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I think it is important to note that nothing about the 5 points of Calvinism are in the Bible.  There is nothing in the Bible about election being unconditional, nothing in the Bible about the atonement being only efficacious for the unconditionally elect, nothing in the Bible about man being so totally depraved that he must be regenerated first before he can receive or answer the call to salvation, nothing about grace being irresistible.  None of that is there.   The problem with perseverance is that it is predicated on those other four principles and not really on the faithfulness of God.

I believe in eternal security, but not for the reasons that the Calvinists do.  I believe we are eternally secure because God is faithful to His promises.  We are secure because God is not going to change his mind tomorrow and decide to revoke salvation and the Gospel.

Jesus, always brought people to a point of decision.  They always had to make a choice.  The rich young ruler, Pilate, Judas, and others.  Jesus always gave people the freedom to accept or reject Him.    The Holy Spirit convicts us, but we decide what we do with that.  We are shown our sin, and we are given the Gospel as the remedy, but it is up to us to accept that remedy.  Nothing is imposed on us at all.

Calvinism is a theological teaching, but it is not really biblical teaching.  And Calvin was a lawyer and was trained as a lawyer not a theologian.  His "Institutes" were not the product of a long and deep abiding relationship with the Lord, but were written within just a couple of years of his conversion to Christianity from Catholicism. 

I am not a pure Arminian in that strict Arminianism believes that salvation can be lost.

 

I have a different take on the doctrine that stems from the Calvinist on this-
I understand it as the mans view upward to God ~ where exactly do we go toward life when life 'IS' God....
things get hard here in the death but I have already chosen 'Life' and that being in Christ Jesus my Lord~
becoming His Grip upon me so that choice is sealed by His vow to Himself to keep me effectively dividing
redemption apart from flesh and into s/Spirit...  Love, Steven

[Jayne]

47 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus, always brought people to a point of decision.  They always had to make a choice.  The rich young ruler, Pilate, Judas, and others.  Jesus always gave people the freedom to accept or reject Him.    The Holy Spirit convicts us, but we decide what we do with that.  We are shown our sin, and we are given the Gospel as the remedy, but it is up to us to accept that remedy.  Nothing is imposed on us at all.

The same thing applies to God in the Old Testament.

Right off the bat with Cain.  God could see the direction in which Cain was heading and God had compassion on Cain and came to him to bring up the topic of "What's wrong, Cain....why is your face fallen?"  Just like a good mother or father who knows exactly what is wrong with their child, but they ask the question nonetheless to open a dialog and give counsel.

God gave Cain an opportunity to BE accepted and explained how.  "If you do well, don't you know you will be accepted?"

God warned Cain of the gravity of sin and Cain's attitude that would lead him into a trap.  "If you don't do well, sin is crouching at the door for you.  It's desire is to master you, but YOU must master it."

God couldn't have explained things any better to Cain than he did.  It was Cain's choice to reject God's wisdom and cling to his sour disposition of jealously and arrogance and a murderous heart.  Cain, most definitely, "resisted" God's grace and call to repentance.

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

It is of course, and interesting topic, and I, like Ezra, consider myself a Biblicist. Thee diference is though, that I see those five points and thouroughly Biblical. To my mind, that Arminian perspective, robs God of the glory of saving us by His grace alone, and but salvation, into the hands of man, with God being a helper.

It is interesting, that it was said:

The five points of Calvinists (rejected be arminians) are . . . 

This is where it is interesting. Neither Calvin, nor Arminus, made any list like this. Followers of Arminius, formluated things they objected to in Calvin's Teachings, they we essentialy becoming protestors of Protestantism. The Dutch reformers replied to the objections of these remonstrants, and issued the concepts of TULIP in reply, before pronouncing the five objects that the followers of Arminus had, as heresy.

 

Basic idea of the TULIP

T - Total depravity	This does not mean that people are as evil as possible. I means that since people are damaged  by sin, they are spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, have hardened hearts, are prisoners to sin, Our inability to save ourselves is TOTAL
U - Unconditional election	The idea here, is that God chose us in eternity, before the foundation of the world, to be rescued. saved, We are informed why, so t is UNCONDITIONAL, as far as we can tell, why God chose who He chose, other than His own soveriegn will, for His good pleasure.
L - Limited atonement	The atonement, the price ot ransom  that Jesus paid on the cross, is sufficient to cover all sin.However, it is LIMITED  to those who God chose to give the faith to beleive.
I - Irresistible grace	Everyone resists God, but the grace He exerts on those He chose, if too powerful resist, we cannot overpower His choice. His grace is therefore, IRRESISTIBLE.
P - Perseverance of the saints	Those God has chosen will win the fight of faith. They will PERSEVERE to the end, so that none will be lost. This is the promise of the New Testament

 

 

Thanks for your reply:

You said:

 To my mind, that Arminian perspective, robs God of the glory of saving us by His grace alone, and but salvation, into the hands of man, with God being a helper.

Why do you think it robs God from the glory?

There's absolutely nothing man can do to get saved, it's all God and He is calling us all but we decide if we accept the offer, do you think God is fair? 

 How can this be fair if He decides who will go to heaven and who are not?

 He knows our choice already,because He is all knowing.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

Jesus, always brought people to a point of decision.  They always had to make a choice.  The rich young ruler, Pilate, Judas, and others.  Jesus always gave people the freedom to accept or reject Him.    The Holy Spirit convicts us, but we decide what we do with that.  We are shown our sin, and we are given the Gospel as the remedy, but it is up to us to accept that remedy.  Nothing is imposed on us at all.                  posted by Shiloh

Amen,,,,,,,,,,there is nobody GREATER than our Loving Father Who First Loved us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& it is all up to us.........FREE WILL

[Guest shiloh357]

18 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Thanks for your reply:

I agree very much with everything you said, one thing I like to ask is why is the reason for you to believe ones saved always saved different then the Calvinist  view?

1 Cor. 1:8

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

I believe in Eternal Security because God is faithful to His promises and that we can depend on that faithfulness to keep us saved.  Eternal Security assumes you are a genuine follower of Jesus and as such you have the ability to trust in the Lord for salvation without the fear of feeling like it will be revoked if you mess up or that God will change his mind on the matter and revoke salvation.

[angels4u]

 

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

I believe in Eternal Security because God is faithful to His promises and that we can depend on that faithfulness to keep us saved.  Eternal Security assumes you are a genuine follower of Jesus and as such you have the ability to trust in the Lord for salvation without the fear of feeling like it will be revoked if you mess up or that God will change his mind on the matter and revoke salvation.

 

Amen for 100% !

Do Calvinist believe God can revoke the Salvation and therefore they might live in fear?

Oh dear......  That's so wrong

In the Netherlands I have known may Calvinists as there are many and I always found them more or less legalistic , they went by so many rules, I remember so many things some of my friends were not allowed to do on Sunday, like swimming or buying french fries or something tons of stuff...

I remember when my parents were visiting my grandparents I was not allowed to bring my knitting, that was wrong to do that on the Sunday.

I even had an uncle who thought it wrong to drive on Sunday

 

[enoob57]

30 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Which of the 5  points would you agree with Enoob?

( Don't answer if it's too personal for you )

 

Praise God for Salvation,the biggest gift we can receive !

 

I answered that on bopeep's thread but so as to comply with the desire of my Sister in Christ-
Perseverance of the saints as I understand it from the Calvinistic perspective explained in the
post to Shiloh. Also total depravity in 3/4 agreement as we did die spiritually as God The Breath
of Life (Holy Spirit) left when sin began in us

Ge 2:17
 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
KJV
No longer having the option of turning to God's Spirit within we became self centered and yet
still having choice but without God's influenced reason

Ge 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take
also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
KJV
as we are born till the age of accountability this above I believe is conscience and all people have it.
As we violate that conscientious past the age of accountability we reduce the knowledge of good and
increase that of evil effectively bringing us to the place ,where like leaven, we become totally depraved
without knowledge of good at all... thus the knowledge of good and creation itself lies as a witness to
the existence of God that we have choice till we have filled ourselves with total evil.

Ro 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV
Love, Steven