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more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist


angels4u

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On 5/20/2016 at 10:57 PM, angels4u said:

I try to figure myself out but I don't think I really know what I am,I look at the 5 points and believe all of them,does this make me a Calvinist?

I also believe in a free will:

By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message.

God knows already who will reject or accept Him

.Does this make me Armenian?

Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn :)

First, I think you are who God knows you are. If you have trusted in Jesus and now you are growing in how to please God, in how to submit to how He rules us in His own peace, and how to love any and all people > if you are growing in this, you are a child of God.

I personally do not try to figure out what earlier history preachers and teachers have said. I did not personally know any of them, and I'd be mainly interested in knowing how each one really lived. 

Were they pleasing to God, in His gentle and quiet love > 1 Peter 3:4?

Did they submit to how our Heavenly Father personally ruled them in His own peace > Colossians 3:15?

Did they tenderly and humbly care for one another > Ephesians 4:2, Ephesians 4:31-32, 1 Peter 5:3?

Did they love any and all people, with hope for anyone to become adopted to be a child of God > Romans 8:15, Matthew 5:46?

Did their beliefs help to feed people to so live and love? Was pleasing God and submitting to Him and so loving all the result of their beliefs? And so, is this the main thing they talked and wrote about, versus only giving ideas which they then promoted and defended? Where did their beliefs and scholarship take their attention, then?

First, then > how does your belief help you to grow in Jesus and become loving like Jesus while becoming more and more personally pleasing to our Father? 

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

This is a basic of how our beliefs in God's love will feed us to live and love, I would say. Or else, our attention maybe is being taken the wrong way.

So, if I test a belief, it is not so I can know which group or category I belong in, and I basically care not at all if it is something that some early church person has said, since I don't know the person's example which went along with what the person taught. It seems ones are saying that a number of big-name people used their beliefs as a reason to kill and torture and ostracize people who believed differently, but we have ones whose beliefs feed them how to share with God and one another as His family, while reaching to even enemies in order to adopt them to join us.

I can easily accept predestination, going by the Bible - - and also because we humans have not been getting ourselves to choose to become like Jesus and love any and all people. We have desperately needed how God has been correcting us, while we have not been constantly seeking this correction . . . in my opinion. So, yes we have had free wills which were free from God so we have lived in love-dead stuff. And our selfish nature was our dictator to keep us making selfish choices, I would say. So we have needed our Father to have mercy on us. In our free wills of sin, we were "dead", not alive in love to choose the way God desires > Ephesians 2:1-3 < and, here, Paul says we were "just as the others". So, how could we make a totally different choice, if really we were just as other evil and selfish people? The thanks is purely to God > Romans 6:17 < so this is not only an intellectual issue, but who is getting the credit that we became willing to be loving? > Philippians 2:13, by the way, with 2 Corinthians 3:4-5.

But I do believe in loving each human as though he or she has a free will, meaning I am not to try to lord myself over the person, but win the person by example and depending on how God is able to do all which is so good in the person > 1 Peter 5:3. So, here is how the idea of free will, for me, has a love meaning ?

Even so . . . I do not accept the idea that the atonement of Jesus on the cross is for only certain people > I offer 1 John 2:2, in context with 1 Timothy 4:10, which to me means that Jesus on the cross has somehow gotten every person to get God's mercy, though not all have become reconciled with God and saved by His mercy. And Jesus died with hope for any evil person, at all; therefore, we need to have hope for any and all people > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

So - - - whatever we believe, it needs to have love application.

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2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You really have to compare each and every verse that relates to this subject. I am fully convinced  that the atonement of Jesus Christ is very real...if sin is paid for....it's paid for. You can't change what was predetermined by God by "accepting it" or not. You enter heaven because God sees you blameless through His Son. If all sin was paid for, everyone who ever lived has the "right" to be in heaven.

1Jn. 2:2 could be referenced to Acts 4:12:  "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Not only is Christ the propitiation for sin to the elect in the area receiving this epistle, but for all of God's chosen in the whole world.

And in 1Tim.4:10, yes. Jesus is the Saviour of "all" men..."all who were given to Christ by the Father as we read in Jn. 6:37 and Jn. 17:2. The word "all" is not always all-inclusive in scripture.

Glad you found something of interest to post on Walter G. The thread may not be dead just yet.

FYI com7fy8, to whom you replied

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On 5/21/2016 at 1:27 PM, angels4u said:

I believe many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong.

I try to figure myself out but I don't think I really know what I am,I look at the 5 points and believe all of them,does this make me a Calvinist

You believe in Limited Atonement?  If so, why is Jesus called "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sons of the WORLD"?  

 

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8 hours ago, RogerDC said:

You believe in Limited Atonement?  If so, why is Jesus called "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sons of the WORLD"?  

 

Thanks for pointing this out, at the time of this thread I never really knew the difference between Calvinist and Armenian and was trying to figure out where I stand on that, I am not a Calvinist and believe Jesus died died for everybody who accept Him as their Savior. I do not believe God send babies to earth just to die and go to hell. Everybody has a free choice to make,either they accept Jesus or they do not.

Sorry for the misunderstanding !

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My personal position is that I don’t follow any TULIP acronym. In fact I refuse to put biblical principles into a nice neat box of easy to understand principles. Reason: I think that many have been led astray by a Fast-Food version of the scriptures, and the risk to a person seeking out the Lord is that they first come across this TULIP, believe the TULIP, and then see everything they read in the bible through TULIP eyes. It becomes a PARADIGM that is hard to dislodge. My opinion is that the bible cannot be summarised so concisely. It is far better for a person to open up the Holy Scriptures, read for Him/Herself, and have the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth.

That said, I would like to touch on the topic of Election, which seems to be a bone of contention amongst the brethren. My view on Election is that God Sovereignly elects those people from before time began to whom will receive salvation. This to many would seem an unfair proposition, that some would be selected and others not, but the scriptures in my view are very clear that this is very much true. We must understand the starting point. ALL are found under the death penalty, and NONE deserve salvation. I think most in the Church would agree that this is a FAIR starting point. Then if this is a fair starting point, then the sentences I wrote just before this that God sovereignly elects some to salvation once again becomes fair. It is a gift to those to whom He chooses. The ones under the death penalty (who already deserve it) cannot tell God that He is being unfair. For they receive their just desserts. He Chose us from before the world began. And that is ok. Some vessels in the potters house are made for honour and some for dishonour.

Now, a very important point I want to make: NONE OF US KNOW WHO GODS ELECT ARE. IN fact the bible says in Romans 8v19 “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.” The creation doesn’t know yet. We see many in the church, and we sometimes get into thinking they are all God’s Elect. But the truth is not so. Many are sheep but many are goats. Many are wheat but many are tares. God does the separating at the judgement. Those who go onto salvation were ALWAYS ELECT. It is God’s sovereign choice, and none of our business. Our business is to share the Gospel, teach, admonish, edify and warn, love and obey. The bible say MANY ARE CALLED, but few are CHOSEN. Do you sit back and think, who are the called and the chosen? We look to the Parable of the sower, and find seed landing on 4 different types of soil. Yet only one type of soil (hearts) goes on to produce the fruit. The truth of the matter is many will not let go of the world, of their sins, not willing to carry their crosses. They want the “Best of Both Worlds”, their sins and Grace. You can’t have both.


Where many of the TULIP protagonists get it wrong is when it comes to the understanding of Sanctification. They have literally already arrived, and are at risk of avoiding the sanctification process altogether. They go so far as to say because salvation is guaranteed, that God will overlook willfull disobedience. There is no need for repentance, or repentance is something that is optional so that you have a better life in the here and now. That is super risky. That tells me that there is something wrong with their hearts, and may in fact not be regenerated after all.
I could post dozens and dozens of verses that show unrepentant sinfulness leads to a falling away (apostasy). Those who fall away were never Elect. God cannot be mocked.

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14 hours ago, angels4u said:

Thanks for pointing this out, at the time of this thread I never really knew the difference between Calvinist and Armenian and was trying to figure out where I stand on that, I am not a Calvinist and believe Jesus died died for everybody who accept Him as their Savior. I do not believe God send babies to earth just to die and go to hell. Everybody has a free choice to make,either they accept Jesus or they do not.

Sorry for the misunderstanding !

The Atonement (achieved by Jesus's suffering and death) and Salvation are related but are not the same thing.  As several Scriptures point out, the Atonement (aka Redemption) is unconditional, so the Cross redeemed everyone who has ever lived and everyone who will ever live.  So as soon as you were conceived in your mother's womb, you were redeemed by Christ.

But this doesn't mean is everyone who is redeemed is saved.  Salvation, unlike Redemption, is conditional - redemption is not enough, the redeemed must then abide in Christ to be saved.  So there is no such thing as the Limited Atonement that Calvinism teaches - the Atonement is universal, it is salvation that is limited, as not everyone chooses to follow Christ.  I hope this helps.

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On 5/21/2016 at 3:57 AM, angels4u said:

 

I don't want to take anything away from Bobeep thread but I love to go a little deeper of what it really stands for and why you think you are Arminian or why you think you are Calvinist.

For me it's sort of a labeling because I go by what the Bible tells me and not really by what people think I should or should not believe.

I believe many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong.

I try to figure myself out but I don't think I really know what I am,I look at the 5 points and believe all of them,does this make me a Calvinist?

I also believe in a free will:

By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message.

God knows already who will reject or accept Him

.Does this make me Armenian?

Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn :)

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/do-arminians-preach-a-sufficient-gospel

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/watershed-differences-between-calvinists-and-arminians

I will have to study this more tomorrow ,it's too late know and it's time to shut the computer off !!

Goodnight~~

 

My personal position is that I don’t follow any TULIP acronym. In fact I refuse to put biblical principles into a nice neat box of easy to understand principles. Reason: I think that many have been led astray by a Fast-Food version of the scriptures, and the risk to a person seeking out the Lord is that they first come across this TULIP, believe the TULIP, and then see everything they read in the bible through TULIP eyes. It becomes a PARADIGM that is hard to dislodge. My opinion is that the bible cannot be summarised so concisely. It is far better for a person to open up the Holy Scriptures, read for Him/Herself, and have the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth. That said, I would like to touch on the topic of Election, which seems to be a bone of contention amongst the brethren. My view on Election is that God Sovereignly elects those people from before time began to whom will receive salvation. This to many would seem an unfair proposition, that some would be selected and others not, but the scriptures in my view are very clear that this is very much true. We must understand the starting point. ALL are found under the death penalty, and NONE deserve salvation. I think most in the Church would agree that this is a FAIR starting point. Then if this is a fair starting point, then the sentences I wrote just before this that God sovereignly elects some to salvation once again becomes fair. It is a gift to those to whom He chooses. The ones under the death penalty (who already deserve it) cannot tell God that He is being unfair. For they receive their just desserts. He Chose us from before the world began. And that is ok. Some vessels in the potters house are made for honour and some for dishonour. Now, a very important point I want to make: NONE OF US KNOW WHO GODS ELECT ARE. IN fact the bible says in Romans 8v19 “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.” The creation doesn’t know yet. We see many in the church, and we sometimes get into thinking they are all God’s Elect. But the truth is not so. Many are sheep but many are goats. Many are wheat but many are tares. God does the separating at the judgement. Those who go onto salvation were ALWAYS ELECT. It is God’s sovereign choice, and none of our business. Our business is to share the Gospel, teach, admonish, edify and warn, love and obey. The bible say MANY ARE CALLED, but few are CHOSEN. Do you sit back and think, who are the called and the chosen? We look to the Parable of the sower, and find seed landing on 4 different types of soil. Yet only one type of soil (hearts) goes on to produce the fruit. The truth of the matter is many will not let go of the world, of their sins, not willing to carry their crosses. They want the “Best of Both Worlds”, their sins and Grace. You can’t have both.
Where many of the TULIP protagonists get it wrong is when it comes to the understanding of Sanctification. They have literally already arrived, and are at risk of avoiding the sanctification process altogether. They go so far as to say because salvation is guaranteed, that God will overlook willfull disobedience. There is no need for repentance, or repentance is something that is optional so that you have a better life in the here and now. That is super risky. That tells me that there is something wrong with their hearts, and may in fact not be regenerated after all.
I could post dozens and dozens of verses that show unrepentant sinfulness leads to a falling away (apostasy). Those who fall away were never Elect. God cannot be mocked.

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 10:57 PM, angels4u said:

 

 

 

 Many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong.

 

I believe in a free will:

By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message.

God knows already who will reject or accept Him

 

Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn :)

 

 

 

This is a very interesting discussion!

There are differing was to approach this subject, ad will give the man ones Christians would hold with per the scriptures.

Calvinist like myself would see it as being that while we still have limited free wills as sinners, we are not nor able/willing to receive Jesus as lord until and unless God Himself chooses to have the Holy Spirit enable us to be able to respond to Jesus to get saved.

Classic Arminian theology like john Wesley and free will Baptists would hold that despite being marred by the Fall of Adam, God still has given enough saving grace towards all of us to give us enough free will to make a real choice to accept Jesus as Lord and get saved.

In the end, it comes down to just how much you see the fall of Adam affecting us, and if God intended to have Jesus death on His Cross to be saving all sinners, or just His own elect in Christ.

 

 

 

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On 5/20/2016 at 10:57 PM, angels4u said:

 

 

 

 Many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong.

 

I believe in a free will:

By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message.

God knows already who will reject or accept Him

 

Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn :)

 

 

 

I agree with you. God bless. 

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33 pages of posts and Arminian is still misspelled in the title

There are indeed Arminians who hold to OSAS; in fact, the Remonstrants, followers of Arminius after he died, said that OSAS vs OSnAS was too close to call

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