more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Willa]

Someone once said that Calvinism is salvation from God's perspective and Armenianism is salvation from man's perspective.  After we have received Christ we can usually look back and see how God shaped events to funnel us into repentance and salvation.

I pretty much agree With the Lutheran perspective on this, which I feel is more Biblical:

Historically, however, most Reformed churches adhere to the five points of Calvinist theology commonly summarized by the acrostic "tulip" as these were set forth at the Synod of Dort (1618-19). On page 41 in his book, Churches in America, Dr. Thomas Manteufel reviews these five points and explains how they compare and/or contrast with what Lutherans believe regarding these matters.

T (Total Depravity) The Calvinists rightly teach that all descendants of Adam are by nature totally corrupt in spiritual matters. People do not have freedom of the will to turn to God in faith or cooperate in their conversions (Eph. 2:1; John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:7).

U (Unconditional predestination) Scripture does teach that it is by grace that God has predestinated the elect to eternal salvation and given them justifying faith. It is not because of any condition fulfilled by them (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:4-6; Phil. 1:29). However, the Bible does not teach, as do the Calvinists, that some are predestined for damnation. God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).

L (Limited atonement) It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15).

I (Irresistible grace) We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:37; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7).

P (Perseverance in grace) We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does not teach, however, that those who come to faith cannot lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11). God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4).

 

Churches in America by Dr. Thomas Manteufel; p. 41 (St. Louis: CPH, 1994).

[RedwoodLady]

2 minutes ago, Willa said:

Someone once said that Calvinism is salvation from God's perspective and Armenianism is salvation from man's perspective.  After we have received Christ we can usually look back and see how God shaped events to funnel us into repentance and salvation.

I pretty much agree With the Lutheran perspective on this, which I feel is more Biblical:

Historically, however, most Reformed churches adhere to the five points of Calvinist theology commonly summarized by the acrostic "tulip" as these were set forth at the Synod of Dort (1618-19). On page 41 in his book, Churches in America, Dr. Thomas Manteufel reviews these five points and explains how they compare and/or contrast with what Lutherans believe regarding these matters.

T (Total Depravity) The Calvinists rightly teach that all descendants of Adam are by nature totally corrupt in spiritual matters. People do not have freedom of the will to turn to God in faith or cooperate in their conversions (Eph. 2:1; John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:7).

U (Unconditional predestination) Scripture does teach that it is by grace that God has predestinated the elect to eternal salvation and given them justifying faith. It is not because of any condition fulfilled by them (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:4-6; Phil. 1:29). However, the Bible does not teach, as do the Calvinists, that some are predestined for damnation. God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).

L (Limited atonement) It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15).

I (Irresistible grace) We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:37; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7).

P (Perseverance in grace) We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does not teach, however, that those who come to faith cannot lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11). God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4).

 

Churches in America by Dr. Thomas Manteufel; p. 41 (St. Louis: CPH, 1994).

Thank you, Willa, for posting Scripture so we can all study to see what God has to say about these things in his Word.  

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”

Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...”

Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”

Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.

                                                               courtesy of Bernard Starr-author of Jesus Uncensored

                                                                        Copyright © 2016 TheHuffingtonPost.com, Inc.

Kinda like this huh? Like the Israelites, scriptural judgements were according to the high court of which the high priest was chief justice.

Dt 17:8  If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9  And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10  And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11  According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12  And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. {and will…: Heb. not to hearken }
13  And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.
 

[RedwoodLady]

43 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

 

Hi, kwikphilly.  Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand how this post adds to the discussion in this thread.  Would you please explain it so I can make the connection?     Thank you.

 

( Apparently I don't know how to quote correctly around here.   I am referring to your post about the councils and the fate of William Tyndale. )

Edited May 21, 2016 by RedwoodLady

[angels4u]

4 minutes ago, Joline said:

Kinda like this huh? Like the Israelites, scriptural judgements were according to the high court of which the high priest was chief justice.

Dt 17:8  If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9  And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10  And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11  According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12  And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. {and will…: Heb. not to hearken }
13  And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.
 

 

Sad isn't it?  Sort of like the RC church~~~people were not allowed to read their Bible until how many years ago?

My mothers background was very reformed and the church ruled those days,there was no free will whatsoever.

Can I say safely,there was a lot of bondage? Or maybe there still is?

Also I was never allowed to say that I was sure to go to heaven,they didn't think anybody could be sure of that, I remember learning a song at a club from the Salvation army "If you get there, before I do (heaven ) I was not allowed singing that song and also I couldn't go to the boys and girls club from the Salvation Army anymore.

But Jesus said :

John 3:16

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, RedwoodLady said:

4 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Sad isn't it?  Sort of like the RC church~~~people were not allowed to read their Bible until how many years ago?

My mothers background was very reformed and the church ruled those days,there was no free will whatsoever.

Can I say safely,there was a lot of bondage? Or maybe there still is?

Also I was never allowed to say that I was sure to go to heaven,they didn't think anybody could be sure of that, I remember learning a song at a club from the Salvation army "If you get there, before I do (heaven ) I was not allowed singing that song and also I couldn't go to the boys and girls club from the Salvation Army anymore.

But Jesus said :

John 3:16

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

Hi, kwikphilly.  Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand how this post adds to the discussion in this thread.  Would you please explain it so I can make the connection?     Thank you.

Oh, I think it is due to comments inserted into this thread earlier. To which I responded. My comments were not appreciated being taken off the subject a bit.

 

[RedwoodLady]

2 minutes ago, Joline said:

Oh, I think it is due to comments inserted into this thread earlier. To which I responded. It was not appreciated, therefore we are being taken off the subject a bit.

 

Thank you for explaining it a bit, Joline.  

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Sad isn't it?  Sort of like the RC church~~~people were not allowed to read their Bible until how many years ago?

My mothers background was very reformed and the church ruled those days,there was no free will whatsoever.

Can I say safely,there was a lot of bondage? Or maybe there still is?

Also I was never allowed to say that I was sure to go to heaven,they didn't think anybody could be sure of that, I remember learning a song at a club from the Salvation army "If you get there, before I do (heaven ) I was not allowed singing that song and also I couldn't go to the boys and girls club from the Salvation Army anymore.

But Jesus said :

John 3:16

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He really wanted everybody to have their own copy?

14  When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

De 17:18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
 

 

 

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I think it robs God of glory, because salvation comes from Him totally by His grace. If it is dependent on us in some way, then we are taking credit for what He alone has done.

If we step away from Calvinism vs Arminianism, then the Biblicist view is that salvation is entirely and totally by God's grace through faith in the Person and Finished Work of Christ.  No one can add an iota to what God has done or does when saving a sinner.  It is a supernatural work of God. At the same time sinners must freely respond to the Gospel while being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

The problem arises when Calvinists teach that the New Birth precedes saving faith, and is only for the so-called "elect".  That not only fails to give glory to God, but reverses what the Bible teaches.

God does receive all the glory when we believe and preach that sinners are saved by (1) the POWER of the Gospel and (2) the POWER of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing the lost. When the Gospel (primarily as the Word of God) is preached, Paul says that it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and Peter and James say that it is the seed of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:22-25; Jas 1:17,18). When the Word of God is sent forth, it is a living Word accompanied by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it pierces to the the soul and spirit, and brings conviction (Heb 4:12,13).  And saving faith comes by hearing the Word (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17).

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, RedwoodLady said:

Thank you for explaining it a bit, Joline.  

You are welcome Redwood