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more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist


angels4u

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Hey everyone, Angels4u started this thread as a "discussion" about what it means to be both a Calvinist and an Arminian. And up until the last little bit, that's exactly what it was, a discussion :) 

Perhaps we could stop the personal attacks, etc., and treat each other with kindness and respect once again .. and save the debate and attacks for a different thread than this one? I, for one at least, was really enjoying reading this thread (and I was looking forward to posting some additional questions and thoughts here as well :)). 

I'm not a mod (of course), but I would love to have at least one Calvinism/Arminianism thread where everyone treats each other well (even when our POV's differ greatly) so we can all learn something, and especially when discussion rather than debate seems to be the intent of the opening post. I believe it will be a far better thread if we do so, and I also believe that we will have more people joining in  :thumbsup:

Thanks!

--David  

 

 

 

Edited by St_Worm2
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2 hours ago, Joline said:

I can appreciate what you are saying. But if the criminal ignores their own guilt, or rejects the standards by which they are judged guilty, no fine can be applied correct?

Uhhhhh . . . :)

Not sure I am understanding. A criminal, let's say a in this case, a person who copies Bibles (which are copyrighted) and prints them in mass, and sells them. They might ignore their guilt, because to their mind, the Bible is God's word and should not be subjct to copyight laws. The person rejects the standard set by the government, that makes reprinting the work of others, for a profit.

In the United States, the criminal can deny having done anything wrong, and reject those legal standards, but if he is judged guilty, he can be fined up to $500,000 or imprisonment and be imprisoned for up to years for a first offense.

Does that answer your question, or am I totally misunderstanding what you are asking?

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5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

"As to your comments on God's foreknowledge is set in stone, nobody can change it, does not mean that God has given us no chance to accept Him".

That is of course true, but I never said that his foreknowledge means that we are given no choice, however, it does mean that we WILL, make no other choice. That being the case, in a very practical sense, we do not have a choice, it was going to happen, that we will choose what we choose. It is only a problem, if we try to assert the idea that we have some sort of choice to alter what is going to happen. Since we cannot, doesn't that really just make our choice, a comforting illusion? Jump out of an airplane from 20,000 feet, with no parachute. On your way down, you can choose not to die if you like, but your choice is pretty impotent. You can choose, but you have no power to carry your choice out, you are subject to things set in motion, before you even knew there would be a choice to make.

We do not like God having sovereignty. We want to control our own destiny. So, we rebel against him, and fight him when we do not like His choices. Satan did it, Adam and Ever did it, you and I do it. As Christians, we have a new nature that wants to comply with God's will, but until we are glorified, after His return, we still have the remnants of that rebellious nature. What is easiest for us, to accept, is that we were in some degree of control, in our salvation, we are not willing to abandon our will, we have pride. Our pride says, I chose to be saved, or there was something about me, that God saw, and so He chose to save me, instead of acknowledging that we are totally undeserving of salvation, and that God did the whole thing in His sovereignty.

 

God knowing what choice we make, is not God taking our choice away.  Perhaps your right, at times I have thought maybe God chooses, and rejects.  Then I ponder on how God says He wills for all to be saved.  Our pride may make us say I choose God, but scripture then tells us God choose us, and called to us.  But if God wills for all to be saved, then in His sovereignty does not do His own will, what do I make of that?  That my understanding is faulty, for sure much of my understanding is faulty, which is why I am here trying to learn.  So following that thought, that scripture says many will not be saved, I have reversed my opinion that we have no choice.  God must allow us to reject Him if His will really is that all should be saved.  

 

Mega, I always slow down when I find your posts, as I love the way you word your thoughts.  I wanted to quickly say I appreciate you.  Were you ever an instructor or teacher?

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3 hours ago, Joline said:

oh boy, it just does not stop huh?

I thought this thread was about one doctrine vs another.

Calvin's credentials have nothing to do with this.

She does have a point. Calvin's theological training, or lack thereof, is an interesting side note, but his learning and the time he spent doing so, do not make anything he said, right or wrong. If it does, where does that put Arminius? Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Arminius was a student of Calvin!

I have to admit, in reality, I would rather have seen the points we are mostly discussing, like the doctrine election as an example, discussed on it's own merits, and compared with scriptrue, rather than with beleifs of people or denominations, but that is just me.

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10 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Mega, I always slow down when I find your posts, as I love the way you word your thoughts.  I wanted to quickly say I appreciate you.  Were you ever an instructor or teacher?

Thank you so much for that comment hmbld, I really appreciate that. No I have no experience as a teacher or instructor. I do know though, what I appreciate in teachers, I appreciate the ones who can give me something that makes me think. Perhaps that rubbed off on me a little, and perhaps a lot of what I post about here, reflect things that I myself, have had to think about a lot.

I might get back and comment on other parts of your post, but right now, I have somewhere else to be (in chat), but I wanted to make sure, that I got a thank you in, for your kind post. Thank you!

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41 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Arminius was a student of Calvin!

You are correct about Arminius being the student of Calvin (or he was a student of one of Calvin's students .. my memory is failing me at the moment). He also had a GREAT deal of respect for Calvin as a theologian (as can clearly be seen in this quote of his about Calvin's commentaries and Institutes):

 

Quote

Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin’s Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms than Helmich himself [a Dutch divine, 1551–1608]; for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy. His Institutes ought to be studied after the [Heidelberg] Catechism, as containing a fuller explanation, but with discrimination, like the writings of all men. ~Jacobus Arminius

 

--David

Edited by St_Worm2
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34 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Uhhhhh . . . :)

Not sure I am understanding. A criminal, let's say a in this case, a person who copies Bibles (which are copyrighted) and prints them in mass, and sells them. They might ignore their guilt, because to their mind, the Bible is God's word and should not be subjct to copyight laws. The person rejects the standard set by the government, that makes reprinting the work of others, for a profit.

In the United States, the criminal can deny having done anything wrong, and reject those legal standards, but if he is judged guilty, he can be fined up to $500,000 or imprisonment and be imprisoned for up to years for a first offense.

Does that answer your question, or am I totally misunderstanding what you are asking?

I am saying God does not pardon, those that refuse to repent for their sin. If one refuses to acknowledge Gods judgement of what sin even is, and do not repent the penalty is not paid. That was the point. I asked if you agreed.

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1 minute ago, Joline said:

I am saying God does not pardon, those that refuse to repent for their sin. If one refuses to acknowledge Gods judgement of what sin even is, and do not repent the penalty is not paid. That was the point. I asked if you agreed.

As when Jesus said to repent:  Mark 1:14-15  

Jesus Begins His Ministry

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Why does Jesus say to repent, unless one can make the choice to repent?

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8 minutes ago, hmbld said:

As when Jesus said to repent:  Mark 1:14-15  

Jesus Begins His Ministry

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Why does Jesus say to repent, unless one can make the choice to repent?

I agree. That is why I think there must be some free will involved.

Though it is the holy spirit which convicts and God gives us faith as well. So it is not necessarily cut and dried. 

Maybe God in these things is choosing some of us, and therefore allows some in faith and conviction to exercise their free will in co operation with his will perhaps?

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Personally I consider myself to be a Calmenian

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