post Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 24, 2016 the physical definition of work is a force dotted across a distance. the calculation of the amount of work done involves an active differential of momentum ('a force') acting on a body causing a displacement. notice that it involves something happening to a thing, and that thing being moved. two interesting results fall out physically from this definition that i'd like to call attention to in spiritual terms. the work done is path-independent. it only matters how far the object is displaced from its original location; not the route it took to get there. if you move a couch upstairs, the work done is the same whether you take it outside and lift it up through a window, haul it right up the stairs, move it across the street first or take it apart and drop it bit by bi through a skylight and then reassemble it. if the displacement is zero, no work is done. that is, if the final location is the same as the starting location ((at least in the interval considered)) then the amount of physical work calculated is nil. if you move that couch back downstairs, no work has been accomplished with regard to the couch. also, if you go back home after you go to your job, you've done no work! ((haha! )) how does this relate to our life as being found in Christ? well, consider the work done on us by the Spirit of God. the Father has drawn us to Christ, separating us and calling us out of the world and from darkness, displacing us into the glorious light of His presence, from death into life. if we then return to the things that He brought us out of - in our hearts, our thinking or our actions, then no "work" is calculated, because the displacement is 0 over that interval. what about path-independence? it's said, and it's very true - that with regard to the believer and his everyday vocation, 'what you do is not nearly as important as how you do it' -- referring to scripture like Colossians 3:23 & Ephesians 6:7 -- plying your trade as though for God, not for men, with the attitude and character that reflects service to the Lord rather than an earthly 'boss' -- the heavenly Boss is your employer, no matter what your 'job' is. so is this sentiment an expression of 'path dependence' if we were to calculate spiritual 'work' ? i'd love to hear your thoughts and comments, and however you may develop this concept more We take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.(2 Corinthians 10:5)Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.(Philippians 1:6) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,816 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2016 Quote how does this relate to our life as being found in Christ? well, consider the work done on us by the Spirit of God. the Father has drawn us to Christ, separating us and calling us out of the world and from darkness, displacing us into the glorious light of His presence, from death into life. if we then return to the things that He brought us out of - in our hearts, our thinking or our actions, then no "work" is calculated, because the displacement is 0 over that interval. posted by 'post" Excellent,I love it!!! What can I say? If you return to the state(or original starting point)from whence you came,,,,,nothing is accomplished,very well said,post with added humor!!! Quote The Parable of the Sower …3And He told them many things in parables, saying, “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was sowing, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5Some fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil. They sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.… Matthew 13:4 To- begin a good "work" one must first be firmly established,grounded & rooted With love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.19 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2016 In a thermodyanamiic sense, work is defined much differently. For example, one would not be able to say that no work was performed climbing up stairs, and then climbing down stairs. Energy was expended going up, with no energy received going down to zero work out. It's like telling someone running a circular race that ends at the finish line that no work was involved. Your example is fine for those who don't know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2016 Work cannot be separated from God. He worked during creation, He worked for our salvation, and God has ordained that man should work six days and rest on the seventh. Therefore idleness is unacceptable to God, and we are to WORK OUT our salvation with fear and trembling. Even prayer is work, and the study of God's Word is hard labor performed by a workman (2 Tim 2:15). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 7 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: In a thermodyanamiic sense, work is defined much differently. For example, one would not be able to say that no work was performed climbing up stairs, and then climbing down stairs. Energy was expended going up, with no energy received going down to zero work out. It's like telling someone running a circular race that ends at the finish line that no work was involved. Your example is fine for those who don't know better. no, it's exactly the same. physics is consistent. in thermo, the equivalent expression is and you can do no 'thermodynamic work' if dV = 0. thermodynamics is not in any sense "more pure" than physics itself; thermo is merely a branch of physics: the physics of heat transfer. work 'in a thermodynamic sense' is nothing more than the same physical definition of work applied to the particular phenomena that fall under the category of heat physics, with the caveat that normally in thermo one talks about the work done by a system only, excluding work done on a system. . . i'd hoped to inspire some spiritual thought, rather than misunderstood physics. it is interesting though that when we talk in a less general sense about work done by a system, the implication of path-independence no longer applies ((if the process is non-adiabatic)). that is a characteristic when looking at work done on a system. this is the difference you are pointing out -- it's not that 'people who know better' realize this; it's looking at work in a less general way and exclusively at work that a system itself does -- did you 'know better' in that sense, friend? now we both do! and also -- even considering work in a thermodynamic setting, work done by a system is path-independent if the process is adiabatic. it depends only on the initial and final states; any path results in the same work ((the transfer of energy out of the system)). if the initial and final energy states are the same in an adiabatic process, then no work is done - it's a null process. can you relate that to the Spirit? in a spiritual sense, one might say this is not knowing better at all -- because for the believer, it is the work done on the system that matters - the righteousness that is imputed to us by Christ. the work done by the system in this case ((what you called 'thermodynamic work')) is what catholicism calls 'works of merit' and legalists call the things we do to 'earn' the grace we received: the 'works' that men do. these are not the works that save -- and understanding the mystery of Christ in us, He doing the work through us, not ourselves -- this is work done on not by the system consisting of the individual. the work of an applied force is path-independent. work is path-dependent if we consider it our own works ((not of a force which was applied, but a force we ourselves apply)); then the amount of energy we expend out of the system contributes to the 'work' we calculate, and that amount of energy depends on path. but nature seeks equilibrium, the lowest energy-state. when the work is being done to the system, the system itself expends no energy: this is the most efficient thing from the point of view of the system. and this, relative to the system itself, is path-independent. if we who walked in darkness return to darkness, whatever path we take to return to darkness, no work has been accomplished on us. but if we who were aliens and strangers to God remain in Him to which we were joined, then He has accomplished 'a positive work' indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.19 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2016 19 hours ago, post said: no, it's exactly the same. physics is consistent. in thermo, the equivalent expression is and you can do no 'thermodynamic work' if dV = 0. thermodynamics is not in any sense "more pure" than physics itself; thermo is merely a branch of physics: the physics of heat transfer. work 'in a thermodynamic sense' is nothing more than the same physical definition of work applied to the particular phenomena that fall under the category of heat physics, with the caveat that normally in thermo one talks about the work done by a system only, excluding work done on a system. . . i'd hoped to inspire some spiritual thought, rather than misunderstood physics. it is interesting though that when we talk in a less general sense about work done by a system, the implication of path-independence no longer applies ((if the process is non-adiabatic)). that is a characteristic when looking at work done on a system. this is the difference you are pointing out -- it's not that 'people who know better' realize this; it's looking at work in a less general way and exclusively at work that a system itself does -- did you 'know better' in that sense, friend? now we both do! and also -- even considering work in a thermodynamic setting, work done by a system is path-independent if the process is adiabatic. it depends only on the initial and final states; any path results in the same work ((the transfer of energy out of the system)). if the initial and final energy states are the same in an adiabatic process, then no work is done - it's a null process. can you relate that to the Spirit? in a spiritual sense, one might say this is not knowing better at all -- because for the believer, it is the work done on the system that matters - the righteousness that is imputed to us by Christ. the work done by the system in this case ((what you called 'thermodynamic work')) is what catholicism calls 'works of merit' and legalists call the things we do to 'earn' the grace we received: the 'works' that men do. these are not the works that save -- and understanding the mystery of Christ in us, He doing the work through us, not ourselves -- this is work done on not by the system consisting of the individual. the work of an applied force is path-independent. work is path-dependent if we consider it our own works ((not of a force which was applied, but a force we ourselves apply)); then the amount of energy we expend out of the system contributes to the 'work' we calculate, and that amount of energy depends on path. but nature seeks equilibrium, the lowest energy-state. when the work is being done to the system, the system itself expends no energy: this is the most efficient thing from the point of view of the system. and this, relative to the system itself, is path-independent. if we who walked in darkness return to darkness, whatever path we take to return to darkness, no work has been accomplished on us. but if we who were aliens and strangers to God remain in Him to which we were joined, then He has accomplished 'a positive work' indeed! It's best for all concerned if I don't comment on your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 25, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 23 hours ago, Ezra said: Work cannot be separated from God. our own 'works' certainly cannot be -- if my 'work' is accomplished apart from God, then it is useless. even if i purport to do work for God. this is what the people who cried to Him 'Lord, Lord' in His illustration did - works in His name. but as He tells them 'I never knew you,' it is evident that it was not Him that was working in and through them. the proper understanding according to the gospel of the 'work' that we do -- those works that are pleasing to Him -- must be grounded in this ((hopefully)) familiar passage: It is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.(Philippians 2:13) so that it is as Paul explains to those in Rome, that if it were as wages for a worker, then it is an obligation, not a git -- and God is by no means indebted to any of us. so His gift -- can we call it a transfer of energy? -- is not by our work, but His; that is, by grace. so if there is a metaphor here by spirit -- and the question might be, 'should there be?' -- we expect that it is not path-independent, and that work should be non-zero. we also expect a ΔE, because we have no power ((defined in physics as work done per unit time)) but that He gives it to us. as S.O.B.G. indirectly pointed out ((thanks!)), path-independent processes when considering work done by a system are adiabatic ones: processes in which heat (an expression of kinetic energy) is constant. the life of a believer is not adiabatic then -- because He has supplied energy ((heat, if you prefer)) to us, considering ourselves a system ((not isolated!!)). and not being adiabatic, considering being led by the spirit as a thermodynamic process, our 'work' is not path-independent; i.e. it matters how we accomplish the things He has predestined us to do. for the work accomplished to be calculated non-zero, there must be a Δ -- a change. the initial & final states in the interval considered should change; the applied force ((or pressure, if you prefer the more specific example of thermo)) must be non-zero. fortunately for us -- blessed! -- He does effect a change in us; we are become new creations, growing in the knowledge of God and His will, being built up in Him, drawing nearer to the full maturity that will be revealed in us on that day that He returns and reconciles all things! and consider the applied force to be His will for us -- certainly not 'null' -- and His Spirit, effecting the daily renewal of our minds and working in us the redemption of His salvation. these are not 'zero' forces: the power of God in us is ">" -- it is 'greater than 0' -- it is 'positive.' He has given us everything that is necessary for a non-zero work to be effected, and to show through us His power ((not ours, for it is Him working in us)), work per unit time. in each time, may His power be known in you all -- may His force be applied to you across each distance you travel, in every time! i know He will accomplish this, because the One who works in you, to work and to will for His good pleasure, is able and faithful to complete the work that He began in you! here is a question -- can you define a spiritual thermodynamic 'system' of yourself as one who has believed Him and who trusts Him? what is the work done on the system, and what is the work done by the system? is there work done by the system at all, or is the work the system does equivalent stated in every non-zero case as work done to the system ((in re: Philippians 2:13, Romans 12:3, 1 Corinthians 12:6)) ? can we reach a consistent understanding of 'spiritual physics' at all ((even considering one measurement for now: work)) ? & should we be able to ? ((in re: Romans 1:20, Matthew 16:2-3, Hebrews 11:3, Psalm 19:1, etc)) or is this a vain pursuit ? thanks for reading my mad ramblings, even if you have nothing to comment. perhaps i've at least encouraged you to think about the universe in a different way, seeking to honor and glorify Him with every physical understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 25, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: It's best for all concerned if I don't comment on your reply. thank you for being good enough to comment that you will not comment. . . and thank you also for pointing my thinking towards adiabatic processes. seriously; i hadn't considered that, and was mulling over path independence, whether we should expect it or not, and what it means. you opened up another facet to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.19 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2016 15 minutes ago, post said: thank you for being good enough to comment that you will not comment. . . and thank you also for pointing my thinking towards adiabatic processes. seriously; i hadn't considered that, and was mulling over path independence, whether we should expect it or not, and what it means. you opened up another facet to me! If you're considering adiabatic processes, remember that it's just a convenient approximation and doesn't actually exist outside the world of theoretical thermodynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 26, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 11 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: If you're considering adiabatic processes, remember that it's just a convenient approximation and doesn't actually exist outside the world of theoretical thermodynamics. what about a barometer in a temperature-controlled environment? but i'm not talking about describing physical processes anyhow -- i'm talking about spiritual parallels to natural physical principles and laws. how as we know the times and seasons of the earth from observation of the environment and the heavens, and we are taught of the glory of God from His creation, we may also comprehend higher truth and the glory of God through the principles of how His creation operates. what do you think the spiritual correlate of an adiabatic process could be ? do you suppose that spiritually, there is no 'perfectly adiabatic' process ? is there a concept of 'spiritual frictional heating' ? please describe it. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.41a872a56add3e6e0209ebd652a26fd7.thumb.jpg.f075035903aaa00bc04ba182a1e771ea.jpg)
Recommended Posts