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Breakdown of all the end times timeframes in sequence


douggg

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1 hour ago, bopeep1909 said:

That does not answer my question. Do you feel that the seals that are mentioned in Revelation are history and have already happened or are they still future?

Well if the first five seals have been opened since the first century, is it not obvious that they are both historical and currently operational?  The future is reserved for the sixth and seventh seals.

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9 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Well if the first five seals have been opened since the first century, is it not obvious that they are both historical and currently operational?  The future is reserved for the sixth and seventh seals.

Do you feel that the first five seals have been opened since the first century? Then you believe that they have already been opened,they are history. That only the sixth and seventh seal are to be opened in the future in the tribulation. That is what I would like to have answered.

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1 minute ago, bopeep1909 said:

Do you feel that the first five seals have been opened since the first century? Then you believe that they have already been opened,they are history. That only the sixth and seventh seal are to be opened in the future in the tribulation. That is what I would like to have answered.

Bopeep,

Just ask yourself these questions: Have their been false messiahs since the first century, and do we continue to hear of false messiahs? Have there been wars and bloodshed on an ongoing basis, and do we not see that happening right now in the Middle East? Hundreds of millions have been slaughtered. Have their been famines since 70 AD and do we not see famines in various parts of the world right now? Hundreds of millions have died of starvation. What about pestilences and earthquakes? You could make a list a mile long about these things since the first century.  Those four horsemen merely symbolize these conditions. But everything from Revelation 6:12 through 18:24 is reserved for the future.

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9 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Bopeep,

Just ask yourself these questions: Have their been false messiahs since the first century, and do we continue to hear of false messiahs? Have there been wars and bloodshed on an ongoing basis, and do we not see that happening right now in the Middle East? Hundreds of millions have been slaughtered. Have their been famines since 70 AD and do we not see famines in various parts of the world right now? Hundreds of millions have died of starvation. What about pestilences and earthquakes? You could make a list a mile long about these things since the first century.  Those four horsemen merely symbolize these conditions. But everything from Revelation 6:12 through 18:24 is reserved for the future.

I am a pretrib believer I believe that the Bible teaches that all trumpets,bowls and seals are still future during the seven year tribulation which has not occured as yet. I thought you were a pretribulation believer so this had me really confused.So this puts you in the category of possibly partial preterist? By your answer this tells me that you do believe that seals one thru five have already occured. Thank you for answering my question.

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2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I see in Daniel 9, where it says that Messiah will be cut of after the 69 weeks, where are you getting the extra half week from?

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

After 62 weeks the Messiah was cut off. Verse 27 tells us exactly when after the 62 weeks are over.

Verse 25 tells us there are 69 weeks all up from the rebuilding command going into action, and the appearance of Messiah.That leaves us one more week to fufill the 70 weeks. 

Once again, verse 27 tells us what happens in that last week, Jesus is sacrificed in the middle of that last week.

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On 6/2/2016 at 11:37 PM, Diaste said:

I'm not sure anyone can know a detailed timeline. Jesus gives us one in Matt 24, but it's an overview. I think the timeline can be known from Rev but it's not easy to see. Computing an exact timeline backed by scripture is pretty sketchy. It looks as though there will be as many results as there are people who have read Rev!

I would venture that none in this thread are correct in toto. Do I have a timeline? Only from Matt 24 and then a few interesting things I have seen in Rev. 

Rev 6, The Sixth Seal: The coming of Jesus and the Wrath of God.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11, The Seventh Trumpet: The coming of Jesus and the Wrath of God

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16, The Seventh Bowl: Wrath of God

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Conclusion?

When I first noticed this many years ago I was stunned. I was taught something very different. I was also confused as to how all these events we see in Rev could converge to a single point, likely based on my deeply ingrained linear thinking. Fact is seals, trumpets and bowls are all related and occur in conjunction. Seals are opened in order, 1-7, trumpets sound in the same order, and bowls are emptied likewise, but from the above scripture we can see these symbolic events(seals, trumps and vials) are closely related. This means that the 1st trump is not the eighth of 21 linear events. The 1st bowl is not the 15th out of 21 in a line of successive occurrences. It's quite plausible that trumps are sounding from the get go. Can we say it's impossible that all the seals are opened and the events they represent do not occur instantly, but rather begin and gain momentum until fruition?

The first 4 seals are continuing events. The riders ride on the earth till who knows when, maybe right to the 2nd coming and after. The 5th is the result of continuing events, The 2nd coming in the 6th seal is a single event that has continuing ramifications right to the end of the week. Obviously the trumps must sound during the conditions the seals released. Further, the 7th trump is when the elect are gathered( this must be as the 7th trump is 'thy wrath is come' and the elect are gathered before wrath falls) The 7th trump must then occur between the 5th and 6th seal, or at the 6th seal, as the 6th seal is also the wrath of God, i.e. 'for the great day of his wrath is come, and who is able to stand?' and the elect must be gathered before the Wrath of God falls on the earth.

 

I came to similar conclusions when I read Revelation, that the sevens culminate at the end of time, with the return of Christ. They all carry the same language. But they don't necessarily follow the exact times at the end, but each have a different perspective of the end. Some specific in time, others general and inclisive of numerous events towards the end, as if all the events in the end times are signs of the end, which of course they are.

We find the same tenor in the words of Jesus to the disciples about end times. Jesus told them what they needed to know about the imminent destruction of Jerusalem, but at the same time, Jesus wanted to address the issue of end times to all of His followers in the future, and so He went on to mention how things would pan out in the future on a grand scale, and how the destruction of Jerusalem and the trials that the discipes woud face, are similar to what happens in the end, and infact througout all ages. 

One of the issues was persecution for His name's sake, other factors were false christs, political unrest, and signs in nature. These can be seen throughout key points in the past.

But none woud be so great as in the last days. And Revelation makes that pretty plain.

The great tribulation can be applied numerous times. But it refers to the 1260 years of the dark ages rightly so called. And it is interesting that at the end of the dark ages, 1790's to 1830's, the sun was darkend, the moon turned into red as blood, and the stars fell from heaven as fig tree sheds its fruit. 

Notice that the dark ages are depicted as such in the fours of the sevens.

The fourth church mentions Jezebel - see Luke 4:25, a throwback to the 3 and a half years of drought in Israel, 1260 days/years - the dark ages. Jezebel is symbolic of the false Christain church riding on the kings of the earth. She killed over 60 million.

The fourth seal - terrible persecution,

The fourth trumpet - the sun, moon and stars darkened.

Note that the sets of seven in the chart are simultaneous, and not sequential, ie, not 21 eras but 7 eras.

Revelation.jpg

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15 hours ago, Ezra said:

Well if the first five seals have been opened since the first century, is it not obvious that they are both historical and currently operational?  The future is reserved for the sixth and seventh seals.

That was an interesting comparison and I have been thinking along those lines of late. Certainly the opening lines of the Olivet Discourse(1-13) have come true and continue. Not yet fully convinced of the parallel with the seals however, even though it appears reasonable. I'm still inclined toward a physical event, or a condition, as the fulfillment of the first seal. As an example of intellectual exercise I could contemplate the rise of ISIS  and relate that to three of four seals. Clearly ISIS has gone forth conquering, they have taken peace from the earth(not only war in the region but breeding fear of suicide attacks all over the world) and horrible and shocking death certainly comes with this organization. Still, I have to think of the possibility  the seals represent a larger, and comprehensive scale. I'm holding the idea the discourse is an ongoing condition and the seals are focused points concerning players and conditions in the last week and related to and foretold by Jesus on the Mount of Olives.

 

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17 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

I am a pretrib believer I believe that the Bible teaches that all trumpets,bowls and seals are still future during the seven year tribulation which has not occured as yet. I thought you were a pretribulation believer so this had me really confused.So this puts you in the category of possibly partial preterist? By your answer this tells me that you do believe that seals one thru five have already occured. Thank you for answering my question.

Since I am a Dispensationalist, I cannot be a Partial Preterist. Here's what Partial Preterists believe (from Theopedia), and they are mistaken:

Partial Preterists

Partial Preterism, the older of the two views, holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled circa 70 AD when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.

Most Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. These last days, however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth, free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the Fall of Adam and Eve.

Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the Early church fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in 70 AD. This would eliminate the 70 AD event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.

Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomists in their outlook.

Partial Preterism is generally considered to be an historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all items of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. However, Partial Preterism is not the majority view among American protestant denominations and meets with significant vocal opposition, especially by those which espouse Dispensationalism. Additionally, concerns are expressed by Dispensationalists that Partial Preterism logically leads to an acceptance of Full Preterism, a concern which is denied by Partial Preterists.

 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I'm holding the idea the discourse is an ongoing condition and the seals are focused points concerning players and conditions in the last week and related to and foretold by Jesus on the Mount of Olives.

Well it is possible that the conditions of the first five seals will intensify during the Tribulation, but since we have the trumpet and vial judgements, those will overshadow these "beginning of sorrows". At the same time, anything after the Abomination of Desolation should be seen as future.

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