2. Christ Operating in the Godhead.

[Marilyn C]

Christ Operating in the Godhead.

The next topic, I believe in relation to Christ & eschatology is the Divine Procession – how the Godhead operates. This I see will eventually lead to what they are doing & when that will happen. I`m interested in your thoughts. Here are mine –

We know that Jesus is part of the Godhead – Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

Jesus is Equal with the Father – “For as the Father raises the dead & gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.” (John 5: 21)

Jesus has Unity with the Father –“I and my Father are one.” (John 10: 30)

Jesus is of One Mind with the Father.  “....the word which you hear is not mine but the Father`s who sent me.` (John 14: 24)

Jesus is the Son of God & has intuitive insight & personal apprehension of the Father such as no one else possesses, which indicates His unity in Godhead. Only Deity can reveal Deity, only God can express Godhead, & only sonship can manifest fatherhood, because the very soul of sonship is likeness of will.

This is the basis of our belief in the Lord. However to properly understand eschatology we also need to know how the Godhead functions, how they operate. This is what I believe - 

The Divine  Procession.

 

The Godhead  - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

 

The Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

The Son - the administration of the Son;

The Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

We may not have thought on this topic before but it is well worth the effort as it brings greater clarity, I believe, to what God is doing & how He will fulfill His purposes.

 

What are your thoughts?

What scriptures show the individual operation by the Godhead members?

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

First, let me say that I'm not like HAZARD who believes that God has a "spirit body." I really appreciated Shiloh357's response about anthropomorphisms in "Someone said, The Bible says that God has no form, no image" in Doctrinal Questions. I agree with Shiloh about them. I believe that God must SUPERCEDE His Creation - ALL of it - or He is no true God! If God has a human form, then He would not be superior to His Creation. He would become like a CREATED BEING within that Creation. The Hebrew word "leeV" (pronounced "lave" and spelled "lamed-(tsere)-vet") is a word that more means "CENTER" or "CORE," and usually refers to the "core of one's thoughts" or the "center of one's emotions." LOL, even our word "core" comes from the Latin word, cor, meaning "heart!" It wasn't until someone discovered the organ in the "center" of the chest/torso that pumped blood that the confusion started. The "blood-pumper" is NOT what the Hebrew word "leeV," the Greek word "kardia," or the Latin word "cor" means!

If God had a "spirit body" through which He could communicate to human beings, what would He need Yeshua` for? Yeshua` (Jesus) was to be, and now is, that Mediator between God and man, who could not be reconciled otherwise without God's intervention.

Second, allow me to reiterate my position: I am SERIOUSLY LOOKING for answers to questions for which I honestly don't know all the answers. Some have declared to me that the answers are impossible to know. I don't believe that. I believe that if God gives us brains enough to ask the questions, then He will provide the means for their answers. Like "why can't men fly?" The answers may not come in our lifetime, but I believe that God will provide in His own timing. Today, we know that men CAN fly in machines they've built called "airplanes, jets, helicopters, and rockets."

Sometimes, I play "devil's advocate" a little too far, challenging the positions we hold, looking for the cracks and pointing out the fissures we might find, but I want you and others to know that I SERIOUSLY LOVE our Master Yeshua` the Messiah (our Lord Jesus the Christ). I KNOW that He is the Person of the Godhead known as the WORD, and I KNOW that, as the Word, He died for our sins on the crucifixion stake, performing the otherwise IMPOSSIBLE for humans to do. I KNOW that He was (and still is) the absolutely sinless, spotless Lamb of God, haKeves Elohiym, and I believe 100% the text of Isaiah 53:1-12 (preferably in the Hebrew to get away from the complications of the English language that may be introduced in translations).

You said,

Quote

 

We know that Jesus is part of the Godhead – Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

Jesus is Equal with the Father – “For as the Father raises the dead & gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.” (John 5: 21)

Jesus has Unity with the Father –“I and my Father are one.” (John 10: 30)

Jesus is of One Mind with the Father.  “....the word which you hear is not mine but the Father`s who sent me.` (John 14: 24)

Jesus is the Son of God & has intuitive insight & personal apprehension of the Father such as no one else possesses, which indicates His unity in Godhead. Only Deity can reveal Deity, only God can express Godhead, & only sonship can manifest fatherhood, because the very soul of sonship is likeness of will.

 

It may be just a technicality and perhaps a bit of semantics, but isn't it true that He was called the "Word" before Yeshua`s incarnation? Where do we SCRIPTURALLY get this idea of the "eternal Sonship?" I really want to know. I'll stop there and await your answer.

[Marilyn C]

The Godhead Operating in Creating all things.

 

The Father – initial movement.

`Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,…` (Gen. 1: 25)

 

The Son – administration.

`God….has….spoken to us by His Son,…through whom He made the worlds.` (Heb. 1: 3)

 

The Holy Spirit – direct agency.

`The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.` (Gen. 1: 2)

 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

 

The Godhead Operating in Redemption.

 

 

The Father – initial movement.

`For God (the Father)so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,….` (John 3: 16)

 

The Son – administration.

           `…I lay down my life for the sheep.` (John 10: 15)

 

The Holy Spirit – direct agency.

`…how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God,…` (Heb. 9: 14)

 

 

 

         

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

On 5/31/2016 at 0:19 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn C.

First, let me say that I'm not like HAZARD who believes that God has a "spirit body." I really appreciated Shiloh357's response about anthropomorphisms in "Someone said, The Bible says that God has no form, no image" in Doctrinal Questions. I agree with Shiloh about them. I believe that God must SUPERCEDE His Creation - ALL of it - or He is no true God! If God has a human form, then He would not be superior to His Creation. He would become like a CREATED BEING within that Creation. The Hebrew word "leeV" (pronounced "lave" and spelled "lamed-(tsere)-vet") is a word that more means "CENTER" or "CORE," and usually refers to the "core of one's thoughts" or the "center of one's emotions." LOL, even our word "core" comes from the Latin word, cor, meaning "heart!" It wasn't until someone discovered the organ in the "center" of the chest/torso that pumped blood that the confusion started. The "blood-pumper" is NOT what the Hebrew word "leeV," the Greek word "kardia," or the Latin word "cor" means!

If God had a "spirit body" through which He could communicate to human beings, what would He need Yeshua` for? Yeshua` (Jesus) was to be, and now is, that Mediator between God and man, who could not be reconciled otherwise without God's intervention.

Second, allow me to reiterate my position: I am SERIOUSLY LOOKING for answers to questions for which I honestly don't know all the answers. Some have declared to me that the answers are impossible to know. I don't believe that. I believe that if God gives us brains enough to ask the questions, then He will provide the means for their answers. Like "why can't men fly?" The answers may not come in our lifetime, but I believe that God will provide in His own timing. Today, we know that men CAN fly in machines they've built called "airplanes, jets, helicopters, and rockets."

Sometimes, I play "devil's advocate" a little too far, challenging the positions we hold, looking for the cracks and pointing out the fissures we might find, but I want you and others to know that I SERIOUSLY LOVE our Master Yeshua` the Messiah (our Lord Jesus the Christ). I KNOW that He is the Person of the Godhead known as the WORD, and I KNOW that, as the Word, He died for our sins on the crucifixion stake, performing the otherwise IMPOSSIBLE for humans to do. I KNOW that He was (and still is) the absolutely sinless, spotless Lamb of God, haKeves Elohiym, and I believe 100% the text of Isaiah 53:1-12 (preferably in the Hebrew to get away from the complications of the English language that may be introduced in translations).

You said,

It may be just a technicality and perhaps a bit of semantics, but isn't it true that He was called the "Word" before Yeshua`s incarnation? Where do we SCRIPTURALLY get this idea of the "eternal Sonship?" I really want to know. I'll stop there and await your answer.

Hi Retrobyter,

Glad you came & commented. Somehow I didn`t get your post, but have just seen it. So will get back to you soon.

Good thoughts there, BTW.

regards, Marilyn. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Marilyn,

Would you care to fill out you OP a little? You made that comment to the effect that knowing how the Godhead operates will eventually lead to what they are doing & when that will happen.

Other than that vague, unsubstantiated remark, I fail to see how this thread relates to eschatology. and unless you can modify that OP to where eschatology is the obvious subject, I will likely move this thread to another area of the forum.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 0:19 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

It may be just a technicality and perhaps a bit of semantics, but isn't it true that He was called the "Word" before Yeshua`s incarnation? Where do we SCRIPTURALLY get this idea of the "eternal Sonship?" I really want to know. I'll stop there and await your answer.

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Thank you for asking that very important question. People can just think that Jesus is the Son of God because He was born on earth. Same as Jesus being king of the Jews. People can just think that He is a king because He was born from the tribe of Judah.

 

Now those terms – king & son denote an office & a relationship.

 

We know from Jesus` own words that He was a king before He came into the world. He held that high office in the Godhead – the Trinity being the sovereign ruler over all. The Lord was also a son before He came into the world, as His relationship with the Father was –

 

`who being the brightness of His glory & the express image of His person,…` (Heb. 1: 3)

 

There we see relationship that not only has identity with Deity but connotes the express image of personality, the exact substance of entity in mind, will & heart.

 

And the title, Father, in relation to God, is not lowered from its essential stateliness because of its use in parenthood the world over. Such words as father, son, priest, king, etc were not borrowed from their present sphere of usage among mankind but existed in celestial relationships before the world was.

 

Thus, I believe there was an eternal relationship in the Godhead with the terms Father & Son giving an understanding of their eternal relationship – eternal Father, eternal Son.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Marilyn,

Would you care to fill out you OP a little? You made that comment to the effect that knowing how the Godhead operates will eventually lead to what they are doing & when that will happen.

Other than that vague, unsubstantiated remark, I fail to see how this thread relates to eschatology. and unless you can modify that OP to where eschatology is the obvious subject, I will likely move this thread to another area of the forum.

Hi Omegaman,

 

Thank you for the opportunity to `fill out` the `OP a little.` Yes eschatology can seem to be unrelated as to Christ & how He operates, when a lot of our discussions in eschatology are centred around pre-mid-post, & the beast & Babylon etc, - all the activities.

 

Yet if we would actually think a bit more clearly we would see that God has a plan that He is unfolding & each part of the Godhead is shown to operate in various ways to fulfill that plan. As Christ is the centre of God`s purposes then it follows that every activity will be in relation to some aspect of Him – His ministries, His offices, His relation to the Father & the Holy Spirit.

 

For example -

 

The Godhead Operating in Judgment.

 

The Father – initial movement.

`God…..He will avenge the blood of His servants, & render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)

 

The Son – administration.

`For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,…&

has given Him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment…` (John 5: 22 & 27)

 

 

There we see that God the Father is outlining what He will do. Then we see that the actual carrying out of those plans are through the administration of the Son. Then there is a time element as to WHEN has the Father `committed all judgment` & HOW  Jesus will execute this judgment. Obviously more scriptures are needed to explore this important topic.

 

Again I say that knowing that Christ is not only the centre of God`s word (& not us), but also knowing HOW He operates, then brings clarity to studying WHAT He is doing in the end-times –  Christ centred eschatology & not activity centred eschatology.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HAZARD]

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 0:19 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn C.

First, let me say that I'm not like HAZARD who believes that God has a "spirit body." I really appreciated Shiloh357's response about anthropomorphisms in "Someone said, The Bible says that God has no form, no image" in Doctrinal Questions. I agree with Shiloh about them. I believe that God must SUPERCEDE His Creation - ALL of it - or He is no true God! If God has a human form, then He would not be superior to His Creation. He would become like a CREATED BEING within that Creation. The Hebrew word "leeV" (pronounced "lave" and spelled "lamed-(tsere)-vet") is a word that more means "CENTER" or "CORE," and usually refers to the "core of one's thoughts" or the "center of one's emotions." LOL, even our word "core" comes from the Latin word, cor, meaning "heart!" It wasn't until someone discovered the organ in the "center" of the chest/torso that pumped blood that the confusion started. The "blood-pumper" is NOT what the Hebrew word "leeV," the Greek word "kardia," or the Latin word "cor" means!

If God had a "spirit body" through which He could communicate to human beings, what would He need Yeshua` for? Yeshua` (Jesus) was to be, and now is, that Mediator between God and man, who could not be reconciled otherwise without God's intervention.

Second, allow me to reiterate my position: I am SERIOUSLY LOOKING for answers to questions for which I honestly don't know all the answers. Some have declared to me that the answers are impossible to know. I don't believe that. I believe that if God gives us brains enough to ask the questions, then He will provide the means for their answers. Like "why can't men fly?" The answers may not come in our lifetime, but I believe that God will provide in His own timing. Today, we know that men CAN fly in machines they've built called "airplanes, jets, helicopters, and rockets."

Sometimes, I play "devil's advocate" a little too far, challenging the positions we hold, looking for the cracks and pointing out the fissures we might find, but I want you and others to know that I SERIOUSLY LOVE our Master Yeshua` the Messiah (our Lord Jesus the Christ). I KNOW that He is the Person of the Godhead known as the WORD, and I KNOW that, as the Word, He died for our sins on the crucifixion stake, performing the otherwise IMPOSSIBLE for humans to do. I KNOW that He was (and still is) the absolutely sinless, spotless Lamb of God, haKeves Elohiym, and I believe 100% the text of Isaiah 53:1-12 (preferably in the Hebrew to get away from the complications of the English language that may be introduced in translations).

You said,

It may be just a technicality and perhaps a bit of semantics, but isn't it true that He was called the "Word" before Yeshua`s incarnation? Where do we SCRIPTURALLY get this idea of the "eternal Sonship?" I really want to know. I'll stop there and await your answer.

Quote

"First, let me say that I'm not like HAZARD who believes that God has a "spirit body."

God does not have a body? Even a Spiritual body? 1 Cor. 15:44,  44, . . . . . . .  There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

"First, let me say I am glad I am not like you, refusing to believe what God and Jesus say about themselves in Scripture!

You can believe what you like. I prefer to believe God the Father AND Jesus Christ.

John 1:1, "IN the beginning," Jesus who was the Word and was God and was with God was, funnily enough, was A SPIRIT BEING, WITH A SPIRIT BODY, JUST LIKE THE FATHER. We are made in His image and likeness, only difference is we are flesh and bone, like Jesus is now, only He is glorified flesh and bone! and eternal , able to pass through walls, appear visible and invisible, go to heaven and return in one day, while we are yet finite.

The Bible says Jesus, who was the Word was a Spirit being, like the Father  before He became man, ( so He could die, as a spirit He could not die), HE NOW has a GLORIFIED flesh and bone body.

Luke 24:39-40, Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me; and see, FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES. AS YE SEE ME HAVE. V. 40, And  when He had thus spoken, He showed them His hands and His feet. 
John 20:20,  And when He had said so, He showed unto them His hands and His side. The were disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
John 20:17, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
    18, Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
    19, Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    20, And when he had so said, He shewed unto them His hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
    21, Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22, And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23, Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
    24, But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
    25, The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger  into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe.
    26, And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27, Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28, And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Again, Luke 24:39-40, Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me; and see, FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES. AS YE SEE ME HAVE. V. 40, And  when He had thus spoken, He showed them His hands and His feet. 

For your information, Jesus will wear His scare he received here forever, to show what He did for mankind, eternally;

Zec 13:6, And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

 The word Trinity is not mentioned in Scripture one time in the entire Bible. The Word Godhead is mentioned three times;

 Acts 17:29, Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
   

Romans 1:20, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
   

Colossians 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

The Father, a Spirit being with a Spirit body, The Word, a Spirit being with Spirit body, who became flesh, John 1:1; 1:14, and the Holy Spirit, another Spirit being with a Spirit body are three separate beings who are "ONE" in unity and not inside each other in one body as many are taught and believe.

 

God the Father has a Spirit body with bodily parts as we have and this also proves the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not "ONE in body but "ONE" in unity in all things.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

"First, let me say I am glad I am not like you, refusing to believe what God and Jesus say about themselves in Scripture!

You can believe what you like. I prefer to believe God the Father AND Jesus Christ.

Just saying Hazard, that sounds a bit arrogant, people can sometimes believe differently, have different understandings, I know that I do not always agree with you, but I don't do the "I am glad that I am not like you" bit . . . perhaps YOU misunderstand things, don't rule it out!

1 Cor 8:1 we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.

I invite you to join me, in trying to keep that in mind!