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Should we be looking for the same Return?


firestormx

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Just a couple questions that have been on my mind lately. Should we be looking for the same return or coming of the messiah that the Jews were looking for 2000 years ago? ( I think yes we should by the way ). The Jews were expecting a coming of the Messiah 2000 years ago. Why shouldn't we as Christians be looking for the same coming now that they were then? They were looking for the Messiah to come and establish His Kingdom.  To which there would never be an end. When the end times and the rapture are discussed it is usually about us christians going to heaven and the sweet by and by. Very rarely do I hear of the coming return of Jesus ( the coming return of the Messiah) in regards to his establishing his literal kingdom on earth.  Does someone's understanding of the Kingdom of God and it's establishment on earth in Jerusalem by Jesus effect peoples end times and rapture beliefs? It just seems to me, that we should be looking for the same thing now that they were then. But instead it's like there has been a replacement of purpose, from Israel and God focused to Church and God focused. Is there not a proper understanding that mergers both ? Why is it either one or the other?

 

Anyone who takes the time to answer all these questions ( I know it's a lot) you have my thanks.

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2 hours ago, firestormx said:

Why shouldn't we as Christians be looking for the same coming now that they were then?

The two comings of Christ are totally different. In the first coming, Christ came in humiliation to become the Lamb of God. In His second coming, He comes with power and great glory with all His saints and angels (1) to destroy His enemies (and the enemies of Israel), (2) to bring all Jews to repentance and salvation, and (3) to literally establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

2 hours ago, firestormx said:

Does someone's understanding of the Kingdom of God and it's establishment on earth in Jerusalem by Jesus effect peoples end times and rapture beliefs?

The Bible is there for all to read and believe.  Those who believe the Gospel are born again and are promised the Resurrection/Rapture.  But the unbelieving world refuses to believe.  Orthodox Jews are also waiting for their Messiah, but because they do not expect Christ, they will be deceived into accepting the Antichrist.

2 hours ago, firestormx said:

It just seems to me, that we should be looking for the same thing now that they were then. But instead it's like there has been a replacement of purpose, from Israel and God focused to Church and God focused. Is there not a proper understanding that mergers both ? Why is it either one or the other?

Replacement Theology came into existence long ago, because Israel did not exist as a nation and theologians simply assumed that everything applicable to Israel had been transferred to the Church.  Both Catholics and Protestants in general do not believe that the kingdom of Israel will be redeemed and restored at the Second Coming of Christ. There is also a lot of spiritual confusion that exists at present.

The way to understand the future is to be clear that God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) and another plan and purpose for Israel on earth (along with all the saved nations).

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Quote

The two comings of Christ are totally different. In the first coming, Christ came in humiliation to become the Lamb of God. In His second coming, He comes with power and great glory with all His saints and angels (1) to destroy His enemies (and the enemies of Israel), (2) to bring all Jews to repentance and salvation, and (3) to literally establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

Yes,it is not at all the same,& though we wait with great expectation,we do know WHO we are waiting for to "return",,,,,,we are waiting for the Same Jesus with a different means to an end but we already are here with Him & He is with us,,,,,,,,,our Redeemer Lives..............

                                                                                   Great reply from Ezra                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

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5 hours ago, Ezra said:

The two comings of Christ are totally different. In the first coming, Christ came in humiliation to become the Lamb of God. In His second coming, He comes with power and great glory with all His saints and angels (1) to destroy His enemies (and the enemies of Israel), (2) to bring all Jews to repentance and salvation, and (3) to literally establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

I must not have been clear in what i was asking. I apologize. Let me try again.

 When Jesus come the first time, you said "Christ came in humiliation to become the Lamb of God" . But that is not what the Leaders of the day were expecting from the Messiah. They were expecting the Messiah to come and establish his kingdom on earth. They were expecting the Messiah to crush all of Israel's enemies. To rule and reign from Jerusalem in a kingdom that will never end. That is the Messiah the Jews were looking for when Jesus come the first time. Is what I posted above, that the Jews of Jesus day were expecting from God's Messiah, isn't that what we should be looking for today. 

 

 Most Christians I have talked to are expecting to be taken to heaven and live in heaven with streets of gold. You very rarely ever hear about Jesus return ( second coming) is about the establishment of God's kingdom ( Israel's Messiah and king ) here on earth. I am starting to think. That a lack of understanding of the importance of Israel and the establishment of God's kingdom has driven a lot of the end time theory's you hear so much about today. I am asking if the Jesus we should be expecting is the Messiah that is coming to establish God's kingdom here on earth forever?

I hope I was a little clearer this time. Either way I thank you for taking the time to post, and apologize to you again for not being more clear.

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Yes that is what we should be looking for because that's what the Lord is going to do.

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3 hours ago, firestormx said:

I must not have been clear in what i was asking. I apologize. Let me try again.

 When Jesus come the first time, you said "Christ came in humiliation to become the Lamb of God" . But that is not what the Leaders of the day were expecting from the Messiah. They were expecting the Messiah to come and establish his kingdom on earth. They were expecting the Messiah to crush all of Israel's enemies. To rule and reign from Jerusalem in a kingdom that will never end. That is the Messiah the Jews were looking for when Jesus come the first time. Is what I posted above, that the Jews of Jesus day were expecting from God's Messiah, isn't that what we should be looking for today. 

 

 Most Christians I have talked to are expecting to be taken to heaven and live in heaven with streets of gold. You very rarely ever hear about Jesus return ( second coming) is about the establishment of God's kingdom ( Israel's Messiah and king ) here on earth. I am starting to think. That a lack of understanding of the importance of Israel and the establishment of God's kingdom has driven a lot of the end time theory's you hear so much about today. I am asking if the Jesus we should be expecting is the Messiah that is coming to establish God's kingdom here on earth forever?

I hope I was a little clearer this time. Either way I thank you for taking the time to post, and apologize to you again for not being more clear.

How do you read the scriptures? There are about 300 references to the return of Christ in the NT and none of them talk about establishing a kingdom on earth at that time. Rather we find that the time for restoring the world happens when the New Jerusalem or Heaven comes down to earth at the end of the thousand years.

At the return of Christ everyone except the faithful die. During the thousand years the earth is lifeless, and only the devil and his angels roam around doing time, until the judgement when there is a second resurrection (the first resurrection happened when Christ came to rescue His own, take them to heaven and destroy the world at the same time). See Revelation 19 to 22.

Jesus said, I go to prepare a place for you, so that you may be with me, where I go. John 14. The second coming of Christ is to take His people home, the living and the resurrected. "They reign with Him," they do not reign on earth as so many now claim. 

There is only one cataclysmic event at the end of this world, not half a dozen, but the single return of Christ as a warlord, not as a Savior for sinners, or builder of an earthly kingdom. "My kingdom is not of this world."

The Kingdom has already been prepared as Jesus said He would do for us. But you cannot convince the masses of that.

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5 hours ago, firestormx said:

I hope I was a little clearer this time. Either way I thank you for taking the time to post, and apologize to you again for not being more clear.

As we now know, the expectation of the Jews of Jesus' day was false, since they had simply ignored His coming at the Lamb of God, and expected the events of the second coming at the first coming .  For Christians (Jews and Gentiles) that false expectation cannot apply, since the Church is destined for Heaven, and the Resurrection/Rapture is what Christians anticipate.

Then all the saints will come with Christ when He returns with power and great glory.  That is when He will establish His Kingdom, but it won't help those those died in unbelief in the interim. In fact, when He does come, there will be UNIVERSAL MOURNING (Rev 1:7).

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On 15/06/2016 at 2:43 AM, firestormx said:

I must not have been clear in what i was asking. I apologize. Let me try again.

 When Jesus come the first time, you said "Christ came in humiliation to become the Lamb of God" . But that is not what the Leaders of the day were expecting from the Messiah. They were expecting the Messiah to come and establish his kingdom on earth. They were expecting the Messiah to crush all of Israel's enemies. To rule and reign from Jerusalem in a kingdom that will never end. That is the Messiah the Jews were looking for when Jesus come the first time. Is what I posted above, that the Jews of Jesus day were expecting from God's Messiah, isn't that what we should be looking for today. 

 

 Most Christians I have talked to are expecting to be taken to heaven and live in heaven with streets of gold. You very rarely ever hear about Jesus return ( second coming) is about the establishment of God's kingdom ( Israel's Messiah and king ) here on earth. I am starting to think. That a lack of understanding of the importance of Israel and the establishment of God's kingdom has driven a lot of the end time theory's you hear so much about today. I am asking if the Jesus we should be expecting is the Messiah that is coming to establish God's kingdom here on earth forever?

I hope I was a little clearer this time. Either way I thank you for taking the time to post, and apologize to you again for not being more clear.

Hi firestormx,

Nah, you were pretty clear in your opening post, no need to apologise for it.

I know what you're getting at too .. you mean this kingdom :  Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Seeing it will be restored, then it must return to the glory it once had in the past, ie, the Davidic Kingdom but now under Christ's covenant .. and with a twist obviously (far superior/glorified than the past kingdom .. obviously). 

That is, the restored kingdom will contain a dual "population" as it were .. one part who will live there, being human Israelite's of past generations from the basket of good figs as per Jeremiah, that never received Christ's Holy Spirit (the Spirit infused with the New Covenant (living word that is grafted into men's souls) which MUST grow within them just like the Spirit that grew within generations of Christians) and the resurrected spirit saints (both Jew & Gentile's IN Christ) who will oversee them like as the angels do today over Christ's children.

Yet the resurrected saints need no physical kingdom for they become spirit beings like the angels and unlike the flesh Israelite's who only receive the physical kingdom at that stage till they too are resurrected at the 2nd resurrection to become spirit beings, the resurrected spirit saints will inherit all things, yet these will be working out of that physical kingdom over the millennium (likely travelling to & fro between the physical kingdom on earth and heaven itself, just as the angels do today with Christ's children) 

And after the millennium etc, the kingdom will transition with the new heaven & earth where all will be made new and all will be one under God.

Cheers. 

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On 6/14/2016 at 8:47 AM, firestormx said:

Just a couple questions that have been on my mind lately. Should we be looking for the same return or coming of the messiah that the Jews were looking for 2000 years ago? ( I think yes we should by the way ). The Jews were expecting a coming of the Messiah 2000 years ago. Why shouldn't we as Christians be looking for the same coming now that they were then? They were looking for the Messiah to come and establish His Kingdom.  To which there would never be an end. When the end times and the rapture are discussed it is usually about us christians going to heaven and the sweet by and by. Very rarely do I hear of the coming return of Jesus ( the coming return of the Messiah) in regards to his establishing his literal kingdom on earth.  Does someone's understanding of the Kingdom of God and it's establishment on earth in Jerusalem by Jesus effect peoples end times and rapture beliefs? It just seems to me, that we should be looking for the same thing now that they were then. But instead it's like there has been a replacement of purpose, from Israel and God focused to Church and God focused. Is there not a proper understanding that mergers both ? Why is it either one or the other?

 

Anyone who takes the time to answer all these questions ( I know it's a lot) you have my thanks.

Hello brother, Jesus will establish a kingdom on this earth for a 1000 years (Revelation 20) then Satan is loosed, the nations deceived, and Satan cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and False Prophet await him. Then in Revelation 21, we see that a New Heaven and a New Earth.........Rev. 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jesus only rules on this Earth for 1000 years, then we will see a new heaven & earth with a New Jerusalem. Amen. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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On 6/14/2016 at 4:04 PM, Kan said:

At the return of Christ everyone except the faithful die. During the thousand years the earth is lifeless, and only the devil and his angels roam around doing time, until the judgement when there is a second resurrection (the first resurrection happened when Christ came to rescue His own, take them to heaven and destroy the world at the same time). See Revelation 19 to 22.

Kan

This quote is completely opposite from:  Zech 14:8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.  AND  Zech v. 9 - The Lord will be king over the whole earth.  On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.  AND Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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