The False and Inaccurate Post Trib Doctrine

[Montana Marv]

Now according to Rev 9:20,21 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood; idols that cannot see or hear or walk.  Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here according to Scripture all remaining Believers have been purged before this event.  So the only ones who remain are Unbelievers.  Therefore the Post Trib Doctrine is False and would be impossible to achieve.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[FresnoJoe]

45 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Now according to Rev 9:20,21 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood; idols that cannot see or hear or walk.  Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here according to Scripture all remaining Believers have been purged before this event.  So the only ones who remain are Unbelievers.  Therefore the Post Tribulation Doctrine is False and would be impossible to achieve.

When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:25-26 (Berean Study Bible)

First

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Hosea 5:15 (King James Bible)

Israel Turns

I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. Ezekiel 20:37 (New International Version)

Then The Resurrection

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6 (English Standard Version)

As He Descends To His Beloved, Zion

Sing, O daughter of Zion, Shout, O Israel; Be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, He hath cast out thine enemy; The King of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee; Thou shalt not fear evil any more.

 

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: ‘Fear thou not; O Zion, let not thy hands be slack.

 

The LORD thy God is in the midst of thee, A Mighty One who will save; He will rejoice over thee with joy, He will be silent in His love, He will joy over thee with singing.’ Zephaniah 3:14-17 (King James Bible)

As I See It

The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. ‘For behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.’ The LORD says, ‘I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.’”

       Now these are the words which the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah:

       “For thus says the LORD,
            ‘I have heard a sound of terror,
            Of dread, and there is no peace.

       ‘Ask now, and see
            If a male can give birth.
            Why do I see every man
            With his hands on his loins, as a woman in childbirth?
            And why have all faces turned pale?

       ‘Alas! for that day is great,
            There is none like it;
            And it is the time of Jacob’s distress,
            But he will be saved from it.

       ‘It shall come about on that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves. ‘But they shall serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.

        ‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant,’ declares the LORD,
            ‘And do not be dismayed, O Israel;
            For behold, I will save you from afar
            And your offspring from the land of their captivity.
            And Jacob will return and will be quiet and at ease,
            And no one will make him afraid.

        ‘For I am with you,’ declares the LORD, ‘to save you;
            For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you,
            Only I will not destroy you completely.
            But I will chasten you justly
            And will by no means leave you unpunished.’

        “For thus says the LORD,
            ‘Your wound is incurable
            And your injury is serious.

        ‘There is no one to plead your cause;
            No healing for your sore,
            No recovery for you.

        ‘All your lovers have forgotten you,
            They do not seek you;
            For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
            With the punishment of a cruel one,
            Because your iniquity is great
            And your sins are numerous.

        ‘Why do you cry out over your injury?
            Your pain is incurable.
            Because your iniquity is great
            And your sins are numerous,
            I have done these things to you.

        Therefore all who devour you will be devoured;
            And all your adversaries, every one of them, will go into captivity;
            And those who plunder you will be for plunder,
            And all who prey upon you I will give for prey.

        ‘For I will restore you to health
            And I will heal you of your wounds,’ declares the LORD,
            ‘Because they have called you an outcast, saying:
            “It is Zion; no one cares for her.”’

        “Thus says the LORD,
            ‘Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
            And have compassion on his dwelling places;
            And the city will be rebuilt on its ruin,
            And the palace will stand on its rightful place.

         ‘From them will proceed thanksgiving
            And the voice of those who celebrate;
            And I will multiply them and they will not be diminished;
            I will also honor them and they will not be insignificant.

        ‘Their children also will be as formerly,
            And their congregation shall be established before Me;
            And I will punish all their oppressors.

        ‘Their leader shall be one of them,
            And their ruler shall come forth from their midst;
            And I will bring him near and he shall approach Me;
            For who would dare to risk his life to approach Me?’ declares the LORD.

        ‘You shall be My people,
            And I will be your God.’”

        Behold, the tempest of the LORD!
            Wrath has gone forth,
            A sweeping tempest;
            It will burst on the head of the wicked.

        The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
            Until He has performed and until He has accomplished
            The intent of His heart;
            In the latter days you will understand this. Jeremiah 30 (New American Standard Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[missmuffet]

I would not get involved with this thread because it causes disunity. There are three eschatology views that are Biblical. Pre,mid and post trib. Agreeing to disagree would be more appropriate.

[Montana Marv]

Yes Joe, On that day, Israel believes when they see the one who they have pierced  Zech 13:10.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2016 at 9:47 PM, bopeep1909 said:

I would not get involved with this thread because it causes disunity. There are three eschatology views that are Biblical. Pre,mid and post trib. Agreeing to disagree would be more appropriate.

But that's not really true, is it? That's like saying there are three right answers to 2+2=N. I could agree that people can make a biblical case for a personal or corporate view, but making a case does not result in ultimate truth. 

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:54 PM, Montana Marv said:

Now according to Rev 9:20,21 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood; idols that cannot see or hear or walk.  Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here according to Scripture all remaining Believers have been purged before this event.  So the only ones who remain are Unbelievers.  Therefore the Post Trib Doctrine is False and would be impossible to achieve.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Not sure how you arrive at your conclusion.  It looks like an argument, or two, is missing.  For instance, you need to have a connector between the behavior you present(truth), the groups in question,(truth), the time space/moment(undefined), intent of the passage(undefined), and the conclusion.  It's like you are saying, "I see a black dog, Labradors are black, therefore it's Labrador." Which is false because of the assumption that all black dogs are Labradors. The assumption of Pre Trib in the above is the unbelievers are in the time period known as 'great tribulation'.  The error here is that Pre Trib says, "All the 70th week is defined as 'tribulation'." A false assumption.

[Montana Marv]

31 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not sure how you arrive at your conclusion.  It looks like an argument, or two, is missing.  For instance, you need to have a connector between the behavior you present(truth), the groups in question,(truth), the time space/moment(undefined), intent of the passage(undefined), and the conclusion.  It's like you are saying, "I see a black dog, Labradors are black, therefore it's Labrador." Which is false because of the assumption that all black dogs are Labradors. The assumption of Pre Trib in the above is the unbelievers are in the time period known as 'great tribulation'.  The error here is that Pre Trib says, "All the 70th week is defined as 'tribulation'." A false assumption.

All is well defined, take Scripture at it Word.  1/3 of Mankind are killed, 2/3's remain (this is the Rest of Mankind).  And they continue to ........

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

All is well defined, take Scripture at it Word.  1/3 of Mankind are killed, 2/3's remain (this is the Rest of Mankind).  And they continue to ........

In Christ

Montana Marv

Please post scripture to support this 'well defined all'. 

[missmuffet]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

But that's not really true, is it? That's like saying there are three right answers to 2+2=N. I could agree that people can make a biblical case for a personal or corporate view, but making a case does not result in ultimate truth. 

Sometimes people post these kind of threads to bring on disagreement and try to bring on angry debates.

[Revelation Man]

On 6/16/2016 at 9:54 PM, Montana Marv said:

Now according to Rev 9:20,21 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood; idols that cannot see or hear or walk.  Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here according to Scripture all remaining Believers have been purged before this event.  So the only ones who remain are Unbelievers.  Therefore the Post Trib Doctrine is False and would be impossible to achieve.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

My journey from not understanding when the rapture was to understanding, why and how I got there.

 

My first thought to myself was: "Explain how Revelation 19 can happen without a Rapture !! It clearly says we come back from Heaven, after marrying the Lamb, with Jesus Christ, on white horses." 

 

So do we go to Heaven and Marry Jesus or not ? And it seemed like it was before we fight the Beast/Kings and their Armies on earth. So I had a concrete starting point for my journey. Everything else must explain this chapter that seems to suggest, THERE HAS T BE A RAPTURE.

 

My credo on scriptures is to take them for what they say, and if two scriptures contradict themselves, to find out why, because God does not contradict Himself. This works for me, I never go into A contradiction or supposed contradiction with preset beliefs, that is a hindrance to finding out the truth.

 

So if Rev. 19 can not happen without a Rapture, then I understood the Rapture could not happen at the same time Jesus Returned to the earth to destroy the wicked and save Israel and to save those who had not accepted the Mark of the Beast, and to resurrect those beheaded during this tribulation period, the ones who missed the Rapture, because they were not Christians at the time. I understood this just didn't add up. We are IN HEAVEN, marrying the Lamb, so we have to come back from Heaven, where we had to GO TO because the Holy Word says we are there, in Heaven......So there had to be a Rapture. Through much study I understood there has to be a rapture before Jesus comes back to rule on earth.

 

So then, I set about to figure out why God's word seemed to contradict itself in many scriptures, for I know God is not the author of confusion, Satan is. So I took the verses that seemed to contradict with the Pre-tribulation beliefs, to see if they stood up, for if they did, I was going to have reevaluate Rev. 19 and see if I had read the passage(s) wrong.

 

But while reading all the verses, I begin to understand why people might think there was no pre-tribulation rapture, but I also saw what I thought to be a major flaw in these beliefs. I began to understand that every scripture that looked contradictory, was only that way because it was assumed that the Rapture was at the Same time as the "Second Coming" which is actually the Second Coming of Salvation, the first was to save from sin, the second is to save Israel and those who have become Christians. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, Joseph did the same thing, Joseph was rejected of his brothers, and saved the Gentiles, (Egyptians from Starvation) then the second time his brothers came to Joseph, HE SAVED THEM....Ditto Jesus. He was rejected by Israel, and saved the Gentile world from Sin, the second time he will save Israel his brothers who rejected him, sold, mocked him etc....AMEN !! 

 

But I understood through study and revelation, that if the Rapture precedes the "Second Coming of Salvation" that there would be no contradictions in the verses. Jesus stated he would return Immediately after the Tribulation, but with a Rapture pre-tribulation, we Saints in Heaven in Rev. 19 could also return with Jesus Immediately after the Tribulation, so there was no contradiction in this verse now.

 

The "Last Trump" I studied for awhile. There are 62 mentions of trumps in the bible. Trumps are blown at the Feasts, there is a last trump to every feast. There is a last trump to every Isthmian games held in Corinth ever two years (at that time). Joel 2:1 didn't work for me because it was called a warning, and Paul said in Corinthians that we would be changed in the twinkling of and eye, not warned,  and there is another trump sounded at Joel 2:15. The Trump argument just did not sway me that it had to be the Last Trump in Revelation.  There are many trumps in the bible, various kinds that came at various times for various reasons. Many Trumps are blown at the end of things, if Jesus died on passover, and he did, and returns at another feast day, this might be the reference here, I just do not know, but we can't just assume this is the Last Trump in Revelation, especially when there are Seven Vials of Judgment left. 

 

Then I studied "The Day of the Lord" in depth, and that is Judgment on the earth no doubt. But Second Thessalonians chapter 2 is discussing how the Gathering unto Christ will happen before the Day of the Lord, fear not, for before the day of the Lord, both the apostasy and the Anti-Christ must happen/come to pass. The Thessalonians feared they had missed the Rapture. SUBJECT OF CHAPTER: As concerning the Gathering together unto the Lord........Or the Rapture. The Subject was the Rapture, not the Day of the Lord or the Anti-Christ. Another supposed contradiction accounted for. 

 

"The First Resurrection"...... in our numbering things we are limiting God. God spread out Daniels 70 Sevens decree over three time periods. Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the living, every person resurrected in Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection or the resurrection of the living, in Christ Jesus. The Second resurrection will be the resurrection of the dead, after the 1000 year reign. God has no time limits, He does not live in a realm of time per se. So I understood, there are truly only two resurrections. Those who will live forever will be quickened and will be raised first, not all at the same time per se. Then those who will die the second death will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign. 

 

Matthew 24:31 was Jesus calling the elect, gathering them to come fight the fight with him. But I noticed it said the Angels would gather the elect from one end of Heaven to the other. We are in Heaven marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) So no contradiction is left by us reading this in the plain English that it is written in, literally. Mark says he gathers the elect from Heaven and earth, well that is what we pre-tribbers say, there will be elect in Heaven (the Raptured) and on earth (Israel/lost souls who became Christians after the Rapture). Contradiction gone again, We can be in Heaven, marrying the Lamb, and be called from the four corners of Heaven, by Gods angels. (Rev 19 still intact)

 

Last but not least I wondered how Rev. 7:14 could happen, these came out of the Great Tribulation. And how Satan could be given the power to overcome the Saints. Then I saw that the Rapture being pre-tribulation had no effect on the fact that there will be Christians who become Christians after the Rapture, these will be persecuted for their Faith, even as Israel is protected, probably in Petra/Edom.  Contradiction again solved, the Rapture of the Saints has no bearing on the Saints who became Saints after the Rapture being persecuted by Satan. So this was my journey, from not knowing if the Rapture was Pre, Mid or Post tribulation, unto what I deem the truth, I came to this decision after 30 years, with much research and study, and guidance from God. I entered the fray with no preconceived notions. 

 

Revelation 19 hit me like a ton of bricks. There has to be a Rapture for Rev. 19 to be true, that was he origin or genesis of my understanding on the subject. Then I tried the understanding by fire so to speak. 

 

God Bless