The False and Inaccurate Post Trib Doctrine

[Ezra]

41 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Did God create the image of the beast and demand that everyone worship it or be put to death?  At least try.

Since the Great Tribulation brings the wrath of God upon the world and the Antichrist, the Abomination of Desolation triggers wrath.  Yet we have one saying that the Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:15,21).

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Since the Great Tribulation brings the wrath of God upon the world and the Antichrist, the Abomination of Desolation triggers wrath.  Yet we have one saying that the Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:15,21).

The sixth seal states that the wrath of God comes then.  Jesus states that the sixth seal ends the great tribulation.  When you put those two together, the great tribulation precedes the wrath of God.  It can not therefore be the same thing.

Said at the sixth seal:

• "For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:17

When does God's wrath come?  At the sixth seal.

The end of the great tribulation:

• But immediately after the tribulation of those days [compare with the sixth seal] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.  Matthew 24:29-30a

When does the great tribulation end?  At the sixth seal.

The sixth seal both ends the great tribulation and begins the wrath of God.  They are distinctly separate events with no overlap.

[Diaste]

On 6/21/2016 at 10:47 AM, Ezra said:

What can one say when such statement are made?  So should we assume that the Great Tribulation consists of the blessings of God?

Well, according to Hebrews 12 chastening gives way to great blessing.   I don't know if you have children but I did. I variously rebuked, exhorted, chastened or encouraged them, depending on circumstance, at specific moments for specific behavior, or lack of behavior, for specific reasons.  Now, was that totally successful? No. Two turned out to be drug addicts and/or homeless and my youngest may be a tart. But 3 are quite successful in their personal and professional lives; and all 5 have heard of our Savoir and their need for Jesus and His return .  That's pretty good considering scripture tells us only half of God's people will take him seriously and remain prepared(10 virgins).

A biblical perspective reveals that while chastening doesn't feel like a blessing at the moment, it does "yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness" if indeed we are exercised by such rebuke. 

There was a time in my life when I had everything. All the blessings of God that satisfy a man of God were mine. But I did not listen to our Father when I knew I should have. In short I rebelled against His clear command. I didn't ignore Him. I wasn't confused about what He said. I heard Him clearly and I did the opposite. Rebelled. Said, "No way." Shortly I lost everything. Family, money, home, self esteem, confidence, social life, all gone literally in a month. It was the worst experience of my life. The pain was intense. Sleep was gone. Any desires, gone. Only survival mattered. My heart was crushed, spirit broken, and mind cleared of worldly thought. This lasted for many months and took several years before complete understanding. Now the better way of God's will directs my life, and I heed that word(super important) and everything important in the Spirit in the life of a believer is restored.

Here's another example:

2 Sam 16

5 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name [was] Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came. 6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men [were] on his right hand and on his left. 7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed,Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: 8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou [art taken] in thy mischief, because thou [art] a bloody man.

9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. 10 And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? 11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now [may this] Benjamite [do it]? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him. 12 It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.

It's clear King David, who will rule in the coming Kingdom, understood the Lord chastens and restores. There are a great many examples of the people of God enduring persecution. When God then so determines, He ends the persecution by delivering His people with great power, and punishes the persecutors with great fury. He will do exactly the same at the end of the age.

 I find it amazing the church feels justified in elevating itself to a position only attained by two individuals, Enoch and Elijah, in all history. Even Jesus was not taken off the earth before death, and He did not deserve death nor any of the horrible treatment He endured. Yet many contemporary christians believe we deserve some special status exalting us to holiness almost unprecedented.  I don't mean to say that every believer is going to endure pain and death in the time of chastening, that would not be true. In the Letters to the Churches provision is made to those who hold to their faith as they enter the time of trouble and they are provided for by the Spirit. But the other concept in those letters is overcoming. If the Revelation of Jesus is about the last week(it is) and the church does not exist in the last week, then there is nothing to overcome and hence, no blessing due the overcomers, cause there wouldn't be any overcoming anything.

I also can't abide the shameless hypocrisy in the Pre Trib doctrine. Pre Trib admits that believers will be in the Tribulation. Pre Trib contends the Tribulation is the Wrath of God. A biblical truth states;

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9);

So, how does Pre Trib justify believers avoiding Tribulation(Wrath), yet casting millions of believers into Tribulation(Wrath)?

Only one way to resolve this; "great tribulation" is the chastening of God in the end of the age refining those who are called by His name, He puts and end to this chastening and 'gathers the elect' and then judges the earth through the Wrath of the Lamb. 

[Diaste]

On 6/21/2016 at 0:30 PM, Ezra said:

Since the Great Tribulation brings the wrath of God upon the world and the Antichrist, the Abomination of Desolation triggers wrath.  Yet we have one saying that the Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:15,21).

Great tribulation and Wrath are not synonymous. There is no biblical link forming an equivalency of terms or concepts in this area.

Tribulation occurs 19 times in the NT and it's always the same word, thlipsis, meaning 'persecution, affliction, distress.'

Wrath occurs 36 times in the NT and it's always the same word, orge, meaning 'anger, wrath or vengeance.'

The terms and definitions are not equivalent. Neither then, can any doctrine make a dogmatic claims these events are synonymous. Just looking at the idea we can see thlipsis is something received and orge is given or meted out. One is aggressive and the other passive. Non-equivalent.

Further, the events themselves are not linked concurrently. In Matt 24 Jesus says, "great tribulation such as was not" and goes on to say, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the people of earth will see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, and then finishes with sending the angels to gather the elect. The order is set: Trouble, the Sign, the Gathering. No mention of wrath here even through we know Jesus is coming in power and glory to unleash wrath on the earth, but only after 'trouble' and the gathering of the elect.

 

[Montana Marv]

Let us put it another way.  The time of Great Distress or Great Tribulation of Matt 24:21 immediately follows the A/D.  This will last about 3 1/2 years.  The Wrath of God lies within or is part of this 3 1/2 year period.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Last Daze]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Great tribulation and Wrath are not synonymous. There is no biblical link forming an equivalency of terms or concepts in this area.

Tribulation occurs 19 times in the NT and it's always the same word, thlipsis, meaning 'persecution, affliction, distress.'

Wrath occurs 36 times in the NT and it's always the same word, orge, meaning 'anger, wrath or vengeance.'

The terms and definitions are not equivalent. Neither then, can any doctrine make a dogmatic claims these events are synonymous. Just looking at the idea we can see thlipsis is something received and orge is given or meted out. One is aggressive and the other passive. Non-equivalent.

Further, the events themselves are not linked concurrently. In Matt 24 Jesus says, "great tribulation such as was not" and goes on to say, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the people of earth will see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, and then finishes with sending the angels to gather the elect. The order is set: Trouble, the Sign, the Gathering. No mention of wrath here even through we know Jesus is coming in power and glory to unleash wrath on the earth, but only after 'trouble' and the gathering of the elect.

I agree wholeheartedly.  I consider this specific obfuscation of terminology to be the main pillar of the pretrib fallacy. 

The sixth seal is the ending of the great tribulation and announces the coming of God's wrath.  There's no overlap between the two.  They are distinctly separate events according to scripture.

When dealing with tribulation and wrath, its imperative to determine the source and the object, who's causing it and who is being affected.

The source of the great tribulation is the deceived world led by the man of sin.  It affects believers.

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  Matthew 24:9
• And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast.  Revelation 13:14a
• If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.  John 15:19

The source of God's wrath is self-explanatory.  It affects those who receive the mark of the false prophet and worship the image.

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17  [sixth seal]
• Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God."  Revelation 14:9-10a

The great tribulation (world against believers) is followed by God's wrath (God against world).

[WilliamL]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:54 PM, Montana Marv said:

Now according to Rev 9:20,21 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood; idols that cannot see or hear or walk.  Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here according to Scripture all remaining Believers have been purged before this event.  So the only ones who remain are Unbelievers.  Therefore the Post Trib Doctrine is False and would be impossible to achieve.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Rev. 9:4 They [the locust-scorpions] were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

So you are killing off the sealed-in-their-foreheads 144,000 by this time, Marv? Those who were immune to the 5th trumpet plague of the locust-scorpions will then fall victim to the 6th trumpet plague of the fiery horses?

So you are saying that a time will come that God will have no remnant at all of his people on the earth?

I'm sure all this is news to God. 

[Willa]

I am not yet sure where the elect are removed.  Some may be before the great trib since we are told to pray that we may be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming upon the earth.  Some may be killed during the first 3 1/2 years of wars, the beheading and the destruction and death that wars cause.  But the wrath of God is not mentioned till the last 3 1/2 years.  And we are repeatedly told that believers are not intended for wrath.  

 

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 9:4 They [the locust-scorpions] were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

So you are killing off the sealed-in-their-foreheads 144,000 by this time, Marv? Those who were immune to the 5th trumpet plague of the locust-scorpions will then fall victim to the 6th trumpet plague of the fiery horses?

So you are saying that a time will come that God will have no remnant at all of his people on the earth?

I'm sure all this is news to God. 

William

You are on the 5th Trumpet;  I am referring to the 6th Trumpet.  There is a time gap between the two.

Just because some have Gods Seal on their foreheads does not mean they are exempt from sinning.  We have been chosen before Creation, yet we sin (and some to the nth degree, then they become saved).

In Christ

Montana Marv

[WilliamL]

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

  On 6/16/2016 at 8:54 PM, Montana Marv said:

Now according to Rev 9:20,21 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood; idols that cannot see or hear or walk.  Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here according to Scripture all remaining Believers have been purged before this event.  So the only ones who remain are Unbelievers.  Therefore the Post Trib Doctrine is False and would be impossible to achieve.

 

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So you are killing off the sealed-in-their-foreheads 144,000 by this time, Marv? Those who were immune to the 5th trumpet plague of the locust-scorpions will then fall victim to the 6th trumpet plague of the fiery horses?

So you are saying that a time will come that God will have no remnant at all of his people on the earth?

I'm sure all this is news to God. 

William

You are on the 5th Trumpet;  I am referring to the 6th Trumpet.  There is a time gap between the two.

Just because some have Gods Seal on their foreheads does not mean they are exempt from sinning.  We have been chosen before Creation, yet we sin (and some to the nth degree, then they become saved).

So, to get this nailed down, you are saying that those sealed by God in their foreheads -- which must include the 144,000, if not be them exclusively -- are all killed at or by the 6th Seal?

Or, all of the 144,000 still surviving after the 6th Seal will by then have become unbelievers?