Is there really a rapture?

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, PatrolMan said:

Yes you have, this is the only sound doctrine that the bible teaches at least in my opinion.

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 1:00 AM, missmuffet said:

Have I encountered another pretrib believer?

Sounds like you did, and I am one too. The scriptures are very clear pointing to a pre-trib Rapture. The Christians during the Tribulation are those who were not saved beforehand.

 1 Thessalonians 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Too many people misinterpret this post as being at the end of the Trib when the elect shall meet the Lord in Jerusalem. But it doesn't SAY that is says IN THE AIR which was their way of saying IN HEAVEN (as the ancients had little concept of heaven being beyond this universe, they often thought of heaven as being beyond the clouds somewhere)

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word "from" in Greek is ek, in the proper context of being REMOVED FROM, not preserved through as some wrongly interpret it. To be preserved through is a different Greek word altogether.

You also see this in

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

These are people who have been TAKEN OUT of the Tribulation not preserved through it. In fact Revelation doesn't say that anybody at all will be preserved through it, save for Remnant Israel. It says the elect of the Gentiles shall all be slaughtered for their faith, something which will be a requirement for their salvation in the Tribulation. Their own blood becomes their Passover.

 

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Sounds like you did, and I am one too. The scriptures are very clear pointing to a pre-trib Rapture. The Christians during the Tribulation are those who were not saved beforehand.

 1 Thessalonians 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Too many people misinterpret this post as being at the end of the Trib when the elect shall meet the Lord in Jerusalem. But it doesn't SAY that is says IN THE AIR which was their way of saying IN HEAVEN (as the ancients had little concept of heaven being beyond this universe, they often thought of heaven as being beyond the clouds somewhere)

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word "from" in Greek is ek, in the proper context of being REMOVED FROM, not preserved through as some wrongly interpret it. To be preserved through is a different Greek word altogether.

You also see this in

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

These are people who have been TAKEN OUT of the Tribulation not preserved through it. In fact Revelation doesn't say that anybody at all will be preserved through it, save for Remnant Israel. It says the elect of the Gentiles shall all be slaughtered for their faith, something which will be a requirement for their salvation in the Tribulation. Their own blood becomes their Passover.

 

Pretrib people unite. I have studied all of the eschatology views. I did that before I prayed and made my decision as to what that Bible was telling me when Jesus would take His Church. With God's grace and mercy nothing else made sense to me other than the pretrib rapture.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[TheMatrixHasU71]

Miss Muffett

You said

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

 

I once had a discussion with my mentor about this and I had suggested the possibility that the Rapture might happen in the middle of a nuclear exchange....perhaps a final test for all believers to see if they would keep the faith even when the missiles are flying. And the Rapture could possibly be misinterpreted by nonbelievers perhaps as people getting vaporized (maybe they leave a split second before the bombs start to hit). He actually agreed.

[missmuffet]

19 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Miss Muffett

You said

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

 

I once had a discussion with my mentor about this and I had suggested the possibility that the Rapture might happen in the middle of a nuclear exchange....perhaps a final test for all believers to see if they would keep the faith even when the missiles are flying. And the Rapture could possibly be misinterpreted by nonbelievers perhaps as people getting vaporized (maybe they leave a split second before the bombs start to hit). He actually agreed.

We do not know for sure that is all speculation. It will all happen in " A twinkling of the eye" Corinthians 15:52. Do you know how fast that is? It is 1/100th of a second. I do not think our world has the human ability to witness this. I heard a Pastor once say that it would be so forceful and in the speed of light that the world could possibly experience a large boom such as a sonic boom. And that those who are raptured would be escorted by and angel so God makes sure everyone got to their destination safely  in case Satan would try to intercept it. I think that is speculation as well because I do not see that in the Bible. It could happen but time will tell.

I do think that Satan will make sure that there is a very believable deception behind the rapture of the Church. I think the world will be very captivated by this explanation. Maybe even something to do with UFO's.

[Leonardo Von]

On 6/22/2016 at 6:43 PM, missmuffet said:

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

On 7/14/2016 at 7:59 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have to agree with others here, that this quotation, is lifted out of context. Most likely the source quoted was Grrant Jeffries, or Rapture Ready, or one of the other perpetrators of manufactured history through selective quotes outside of context.

Some people have an agenda, and cannot be trusted. I have to agree with  Ezra here, it is best to stick to the Bible. Even if Epharaem had actually meant what what is quoted (and he did not), the opinions of some writer nearly 400 A.D. is hardly  proof of anything.

 

On 7/14/2016 at 4:49 PM, RustyAngeL said:

The Bible says what it says.  It is not open to interpretation. 

I totally agree with RustyAngeL and Omeagaman 3.0. As Paul said, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual (1Cor 2.13). In other words, the only source to interpret the Sacred Scripture is itself inspired by Jesus’s Spirit.

• ·         "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2Peter 1.20).

 

On 7/14/2016 at 6:36 PM, Out of the Shadows said:

 If it were true there would not be the age old debate between Calvinism and Arminianism, and there would not be more denominations than one can count. 

The many interpretations of the Sacred Scripture is due to the fact that, unfortunately, the most people don’t meditate in depth and with sincerity. They simply repeat what they learn of men. They are like shown in the Sower’s parable:

• ·         “Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.”

• ·         “But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.” (Matthew 13.5,6,20,21).

 

If we don’t fathom the Sacred Scripture, relying solely on what the men tell us, inevitably we will fall in the next curse:

 

• "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [ be ] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, [ in ] a salt land and not inhabited.”

 

It is indispensable to deepen the roots of faith in Jesus and His Word:

 

• ·          Blessed [ is ] the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and [ that ] spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. The heart [ is ] deceitful above all [ things ], and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17.5-9).

 

Lamentably, there is also those that fulfill the Peter’s and the Jude’s prophecy:

 

• ·         “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” (2Peter 2.1-3).

• ·         “As also in all [ his ] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [ they do ] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2Peter 3.16).

• ·         “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4).

 

And the motive for which Jesus allow such things is explained by Paul:

 

• ·         “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1Cor 11.19).

 

In other words, the reason for so much religion confusion is that we learn to seek the truth directly from the source of all truth and light. (that is, of Jesus):

 

• ·         “Come unto me, all [ ye ] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” (Matt 11.28,29).

• ·         “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6.44,45).

• ·         “But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:” (Eph 4.20,21).

• ·         “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1John 2.27).

 

After all, "there is no secondhand faith. We aren’t saved by God from others. Thus, instead of believing what others say to us about God (like Job – Job 42.5) , we ought to enter in a personal relationship with Jesus and hear His voice consistently (as orders Revelation 2.7,11,17,29; 3.6,13,22) lead us (it is thus that we will be done God’s sons – Rom 8.14).

Furthermore, we ought to do like the Berea’s believers: to receive the word of the Ethernal with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17.11). Merely so we will can prove all things and hold fast only that which is good (1Thess 5.21).

 

On 7/14/2016 at 6:36 PM, Out of the Shadows said:

If that were the case there would not be three permanent threads on this forum discussing the different interpretations of the end times. 

About to the fact that there are three permanent threads on this forum, this is because we are all sincere seekers of truth in life in each other's lives. Glory to Jesus for this forum and that there are still people willing to seek the truth and help others to meet it.

The objective is:

• ·         “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we [ henceforth ] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [ and ] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [ even ] Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Eph 4.11-16).

 

In other words, our goal is to grow together into Truth so that we can be pleasant to Jesus. To this we earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3): to be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (1Cor 1.10; see also Acts 4.32; Phil 4.2).

After all, only:

 

• ·         “[ There is ] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who [ is ] above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Eph 4.4-6).

 

Considering that there is only one Lord and one faith, therefore only exist ONE Truth (which is Jesus Christ – John 14.6). If we aren’t in the only truth, then we are deceiving ourselves (and the worst: to the others too).

Jesus bless you powerfully and lead us together into this Truth.

[Ezra]

Looks like this ancient thread is being resurrected.  Yes, there really is a Rapture -- a supernatural event. Bible Christianity is essentially supernatural.

[enoob57]

The preponderance of Scripture shows division in the second coming of The Lord: first the rapture; second the millennial kingdom.  If one is to reason with the written hermeneutics of the Bible with the clear different distinctions in the one divided out event of the second coming - the flow is an overwhelming yes the rapture is a planned event of God and believe it or not it will be as it is written...  Love, Steven

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The preponderance of Scripture shows division in the second coming of The Lord: first the rapture; second the millennial kingdom.  If one is to reason with the written hermeneutics of the Bible with the clear different distinctions in the one divided out event of the second coming - the flow is an overwhelming yes the rapture is a planned event of God and believe it or not it will be as it is written...  Love, Steven

All of the best teachers that I know teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

[enoob57]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 1:15 PM, missmuffet said:

We do not know for sure that is all speculation. It will all happen in " A twinkling of the eye" Corinthians 15:52. Do you know how fast that is? It is 1/100th of a second. I do not think our world has the human ability to witness this. I heard a Pastor once say that it would be so forceful and in the speed of light that the world could possibly experience a large boom such as a sonic boom. And that those who are raptured would be escorted by and angel so God makes sure everyone got to their destination safely  in case Satan would try to intercept it. I think that is speculation as well because I do not see that in the Bible. It could happen but time will tell.

I do think that Satan will make sure that there is a very believable deception behind the rapture of the Church. I think the world will be very captivated by this explanation. Maybe even something to do with UFO's.

This time issue is interesting to understand within one second lies eternity as the concept of time  lies in the pleasure of God Who ordains the clock ... Gen 1. Yet will again ordain a perfection of instant for the first time meter of sun, moon and stars are removed (at least the sun & moon Rev 21:23-27 ) and God placing Himself into that meter. Which being in unity with no begin and no end we rightly shift defining into the Hands of The Eternal One our God and relevance will be past our experiential knowing or defining till then.... Love, Steven