If you don't work you shouldn't eat? 2 Thess. 3:10

[GoldenEagle]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

It is one illustration of a general Bible principle.  You will find numerous Proverbs relating to this. The whole point of the epistles is to teach all Christians in all ages Bible truth through specific incidents. If we want to see the necessity of hard work in connection with building the Church we should study Ezra-Nehemiah.

While I can see your perspective Ezra... The point of the Pauline letters (or any book of the Bible) is they were written to a specific people at a specific time. While we can glean from these teachings we should always do so while looking at passages in context. Not stripping them out of context to say something the writer never intended for the passage to say. Would you agree with that? 

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

Actually it applies to all humanity across the board as set forth in Genesis 3:17-19. Adam represents, and is the progenitor of, the human race.

"Shunning" is another term for having no fellowship with another Christian.

You are saying that this passage in 2 Thess. 3:10 applies to all humanity across the board? How can you apply it to all humanity when it clearly was regarding behavior of Christians in a particular city, at a particular time, dealing with a particular issue?

At what point does one "shun" another Christian? Are you talking about church discipline such as Matthew 18:15–20 for example?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

7 hours ago, firestormx said:

I agree wholeheartedly with your above statement.  

I was hoping someone else might lol

7 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

Yes, Social Security is there for those who are disabled and genuinely are not able to work. Even though their families are able to take care of them Social Security will help with their food,clothing and other needs. Families who are taking care of them should never help themselves to this supplemental income. That is a problem.

Social Security is also there for those who are retired and have paid into it all their working years.

I agree with you Bo that SS is both for people who are disabled and retired folks.

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

Boy have I struggled with this before!  Especially as a busy body in other mens matters.  Not minding my own business and doing my own work.  But I was completely blind to my defective character.  Everything I did was attached to jusifications, minimazations and rationalizations which made it OK for me to be who I was and do what I did.

Learning to exercisie myself unto godliness with the gentle nurture of fellow believers who encouraged me to grow caused a complete turn around in behavior.  None of them ever pulled out a bible and said "Gary, you ought not eat today according to this here passage Paul wrote".  No, they loved me instead.  The believers around me never quote scrupture.  They live it and when asked about things they speak what God teaches in scripture while giving God the credit.  Most comes back to love doesn't do evil to its neighbor.  Busy bodies and lazy folks do.

God be praised!

[GoldenEagle]

7 hours ago, Willa said:

 

I rather resent that you would call SS, something we have invested in for all of our working years, to be socialistic welfare programs.  The government has been  stealing our investment and using it for other programs without our permission, by the way.  

Even the welfare programs demand that able bodied people work.  Their wages are supplemented according to the size of their families, I believe.  

At our church those who come begging for help must also labor around the church and even at the homes of the pastors.  They work as janitors and other labor.  The church then pays the arrears on a utility bill or other dire need.  

In the times past when extended family was present, the families helped out those in need.  They gleaned from their crops or lived an a basic shack on their property. Today they may have to move in with relatives for a time till they find work.  Of course they are expected to do their share of chores.  But in our mobile society family is not always present.   Churches do help our their members.  The collection for the poor church in Jerusalem that Paul took was due to the famine in that area, and that the people were living in a commune and had sold their land and goods.  So they were without resources.  But people still had compassion on their brothers in Christ.  

While as individuals we should not close our hearts to people in need that we encounter, such as the Good Samaritan had helped, it doesn't seem to be the duty of the church to feed the world.  We take care of those faithful to Christ.  So our church also helps to support poor churches in India and Africa.  

Hiya Willa!  

Thanks for taking the time to write a well-thought out post! 

Sorry I didn't meant to offend and I'm sorry you resent it being called a socialist welfare program. But that's what it is. It's like calling an apple an apple. What else would you call it? Many people don't care to think about that. The current system we have in the U.S. is socialistic in nature in many ways. Welfare programs in the U.S. such Feeding programs (WIC), Social Security, Medicaid, Food Stamps (SNAP), Earned Income Tax Credits, Child Nutrition Programs (CHIP), Affordable Care Act (ACA or Obamacare), etc. are all socialistic in nature. They are our reality and cost somewhere around $800 Billion a year.

We were discussing this very thing in this other thread: A Guaranteed Basic Income of $583 might work in the U.S.A.?

The Social Security Act was passed during Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency in August 1935 as part of the "New Deal." At it's core it is a social welfare and social insurance program. It was meant to help people after retirement at 65 as supplemental income. Of course, people lived 70 or 75 years at most back then. Today people live often past their 80's or 90's. So the life expectancy has changed significantly since then. One of the issues and concerns as it is not sustainable in the long run in it's current form. 

I do agree that welfare programs often have stipulations that able bodied people work. And yes wages are supplemented according to the size of their families.  

I see nothing wrong in asking people who are wanting food to work for it. That said, I think the church today as a whole focuses way to much on the inward aspect of things. The focus is on members and providing social activities. At times we loose the focus of telling people about Jesus and helping those in need. Just take a look at church's budgets these days. I guarantee you most churches in America have less than 5% of their budget going to help those in need. Usually it's like 1-2% of the budget. The Gospel isn't about programs {for Christians} and a social club {for Christians}. The Gospel is about bringing light to the world that can only be found in Jesus. I think we lose sight of that in the Church. 

You said: "We take care of those faithful to Christ." I like that you brought up the story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37). I was just reading the story to my son this week. He couldn't understand why the priest or Levite wouldn't help the man. And wondered why an enemy would help the wounded man. 

I wonder what you think of passages like Matthew 25:31-46? I'll quote verses 32-40 for perspective. 

Matthew 25:37-40

37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Seems that feeding people, hospitality, giving clothes to others, helping those who are sick, and helping those who are in prison is what Jesus had in mind. 

What do you think?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

9 hours ago, Ezra said:

Since there are plenty of passages that teach Christians to bear one anothers' burdens, I don't see how anyone could misapply this passage about laziness.

 

9 hours ago, firestormx said:

Matthew 25:41-46

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Show me the exception in the words of the King and Lord Jesus Christ, where we get to decide if someone exceeds our standard of laziness before we show love and compassion and mercy. To often people are just looking for an excuse not to have to lift a finger to help anyone.

Hiya brother!  

I think you hit the nail on the head firestorms. Didn't Jesus say to forgive someone 7 x 70 times in the Parable of the unforgiving servant? (Matthew 18-21-35) Basically an infinite amount? Where does the Bible say to stop offering people love, compassion, GRACE, and mercy? I'm interested to see how Ezra responds. Funny enough I just mentioned this passage to Willa and then read your post. I must have missed it the first time.   

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

8 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Golden Eagle,,,

      I agree with Ezra completely,the passage you are referring to does mean exactly what it says,,,,,,able bodied folks(ESPECIALLY Christians & they are the audience he was writing to address),,,,,,,should not have their hands out ,,,,,no work,no eats!   But the message is twofold ,,,,,,,he also speaks of the busybodies,this should be a good example of what idleness breeds,,,,,,,idleness & laziness leads to unproductive,ineffective,negative mischief(gossip etc...)

     This is probably where the old saying came from "An idle mind is the devil's workshop"                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

Also,Paul is NOT talking about the elderly,the disabled,widows,orphans etc,,,,,,, He is obviously talking about opportunists,people expecting hand outs that are perfectly capable of earning their way,& Paul he lead by example,,,,,,,

Hiya Kwik   

I might agree if people are being divisive in the church, not working, and then wanting assistance. Yet how then do we apply the teachings on giving in the Bible? How do we balance between making sure people are not taking advantage and the commands in scripture to give and not hold back? This is what I'm wrestling through and trying to come to terms with. 

I agree that Paul is NOT talking about the elderly, disabled, widows, orphans, etc. Yet what about the poor? Seems it was important to the 3 Pillars in the early Church: James, Peter and John. Seems Paul was in agreement. 

Galatians 2:9-10 (Read Galatians 2 here for context.)

9 ...and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

How do we balance between making sure people are not taking advantage and the commands in scripture to give and not hold back? This is what I'm wrestling through and trying to come to terms with. 

Here are some of the passages I'm talking about and wrestling through. Feel free to look them up in context.   

The the Old Testament for example: 

Deuteronomy 15:10
Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

Deuteronomy 16:17
Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD your God which He has given you.

Proverbs 3:27 
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. 

Proverbs 11:24-25
There is one who scatters, and yet increases all the more, and there is one who withholds what is justly due, and yet it results only in want. The generous man will be prosperous, and he who waters will himself be watered. 

Proverbs 21:26
…the righteous gives and does not hold back.

Proverbs 22:9
He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.

Proverbs 28:27 
He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses.

 

Or how about the New Testament? 

Luke 6:30
Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.

Matthew 6:3-4
But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

2 Corinthians 9:6-8
Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed.

James 2:15-16
If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

Boy have I struggled with this before!  Especially as a busy body in other mens matters.  Not minding my own business and doing my own work.  But I was completely blind to my defective character.  Everything I did was attached to jusifications, minimazations and rationalizations which made it OK for me to be who I was and do what I did.

Learning to exercisie myself unto godliness with the gentle nurture of fellow believers who encouraged me to grow caused a complete turn around in behavior.  None of them ever pulled out a bible and said "Gary, you ought not eat today according to this here passage Paul wrote".  No, they loved me instead.  The believers around me never quote scrupture.  They live it and when asked about things they speak what God teaches in scripture while giving God the credit.  Most comes back to love doesn't do evil to its neighbor.  Busy bodies and lazy folks do.

God be praised!

Hiya Gary!   Long time no talk brother.

This was so encouraging! Praise God for people willing to love you where you were at and allow the Holy Spirit to work in your life. It really shows the true example of what following Christ is all about and following Jesus command to love people. 

John 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Would love to catch up via private message sometime to hear how God is is working in your life. 

God bless,

Jon/GE

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

How do we balance between making sure people are not taking advantage and the commands in scripture to give and not hold back? This is what I'm wrestling through and trying to come to terms with. 

 

I think that is where good old fashioned commonsense comes into play.  I don't think the Lord expects us to squander resources on those who allow themselves to become dependent on handouts.   And we do them no favors by letting them do that to us.

I have no problem helping and giving to someone who is demonstrating that he is trying to help himself.  If he is out looking for a job and really putting out a good effort to get it together and stuff, I will help him until he is back up and ready to go.   But if there are always excuses as to why he can't get out and look for a job or a place to live, and I can tell he is just mooching off of me, I am less willing to help at that point.

[Ezra]

7 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

You are saying that this passage in 2 Thess. 3:10 applies to all humanity across the board?

The principle of work applies to all humanity across the board. Instructions to Christians only would be for Christians only (regarding brothers in the Lord).