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PREDESTINATION


WarriorforHim

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Has God predetermined who will or will not go to heaven?  The term predestination the context of salvation literally means: knowing  who to choose or own before the beneficiary's decision will be made in agreement  with  the  call  to salvation. God who is omniscient already knew in eternity past who would respond in agreement with His offer of eternal life through Christ Jesus by faith.

God predetermined that salvation would be by grace through faith in Christ crucified alone.. Thus, all are afforded the opportunity to be saved (Titus 2:11)  11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, God never predestined that people would go to hell (2 Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. As a matter of fact, hell was purposefully and exclusively prepared for satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41) Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. While it is both true and tragic that people are going to hell... they do so at their OWN choosing.   God has purposed that people would be born to be born again ( 1 Timothy 2:4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. This required God's offer of salvation and man's responsibility to receive God's gift of eternal life by faith. God will never save anyone without their consent ( John 1:12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Predestination has to do with more than just going to heaven. God has predestined that all who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ. It is to every Christians advantage to grow in the likeness of Christ.   Life eternal and internal do not exist apart from Christ .

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, WarriorforHim said:

Has God predetermined who will or will not go to heaven?  The term predestination the context of salvation literally means: knowing  who to choose or own before the beneficiary's decision will be made in agreement  with  the  call  to salvation. God who is omniscient already knew in eternity past who would respond in agreement with His offer of eternal life through Christ Jesus by faith.

I think there is a bit of a flaw here. The problem I see, is that you seem to be defining predestination in a way inconsistent with how it is used by theologians or by scripture, and that causes confusion.

Predestination does not literally mean knowing who to choose beforehand, that would be foreknowledge, which may or may not be a determining factor in salvation. I agree that God indeed knew in eternity past, who would respond to His call, but scripture does not say that is the basis of salvation. I would agree however, that there is a sense in which the two are connected. 

Whatever God foresees will happen, indeed will happen. Therefore, there is no escaping the fact, that there will be some lost, and some saved, if we assume that God does not make mistakes in His foreknowledge.

We may be confident, that some are saved and some are lost, and it will turn out exactly as God has foreseen it. However, it is a bit of a stretch to assume that it is on the basis of foreknowledge, that people are predestined to their respective fates. It is fair to say, however, that God's foreknowledge and predestination are in harmony. The outcome will be as God has foreseen, the two are in agreement. It is not a question of free will, versus God's choice. God can give us the will to choose Him, just as everything we have, comes from Him, our faith itself, is from Him. We love Him, because He first loved us.

When we begin to take the credit for our choice, we have put the cart before the horse.

A big problem (for me at least) is that if we assume that God's foreknowledge is the determining factor in salvation,then man is really in control, and God us just an observer. This sort of robs God of His deserved glory, and we take some of that glory for ourselves, since now we have assumed control over our destiny. It becomes our work, not His work and grace. It is almost as though we think that we have free will with the power to over-rule God. Free will is fine, but when our free will is more powerful that God's free will, we have denied His sovereignty. We make salvation out to be our choice, not His, we are on the throne, not Him.

Eph 1 says in part:

  3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

There is a lot of language in that passage which bears on the topic.

  • He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
  • to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved
  • according to the riches of His grace
  • according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
  • having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will

There is much more to say on this subject, and I am sure there will be more said. However, I know that peoples attention is limited, and if I give too much information, then people cannot easily make objections or ask questions, so I will end here, and perhaps contribute more at a later time.

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Read the whole thing not just one paragraph.. God predetermined that salvation would be by grace through faith in Christ crucified alone.. Thus, all are afforded the opportunity to be saved. Predestination has to do with more than just going to heaven. God has predestined that all who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ. It is to every Christians advantage to grow in the likeness of Christ.   Life eternal and internal do not exist apart from Christ .

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6 hours ago, WarriorforHim said:

Predestination has to do with more than just going to heaven. God has predestined that all who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ.

This is the proper understanding of predestination.  Predestination means that a sinner made in the image of Adam will -- by God's grace and power -- be ultimately transformed into the image of Christ.  That is a guarantee for each one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit and is a child of God (1 John 3:1-3).

It is impossible that predestination would apply to salvation. If that were true then every human being would be predestined for salvation (which is Universalism), because salvation is offered to all.

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7 hours ago, WarriorforHim said:

God has predestined that all who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ. 

 

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

This is the proper understanding of predestination. 

Are you guys saying that it would be wrong for God to choose those who follow Him because it would violate their free will?

And or

That God would not choose some to be saved out of all humankind because that would not be fair to those who where not chosen?

And or

God would not harden some peoples hearts so that they cannot be saved, because that violates their right to salvation if given free will?

Edited by DARRELX
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Guest Robert
12 minutes ago, DARRELX said:

 

Are you guys saying that it would be wrong for God to choose those who follow Him because it would violate their free will?

And or

That God would not choose some to be saved out of all humankind because that would not be fair to those who where not chosen?

 

A question to then ask is: what would be the point of God giving man free will in the first place, if He would decide what their ultimate fate was?

The Lord wants people to love Him freely: to choose who would and would not love Him would essentially place the fault of sin on God, as He could have simply made us to love Him without the ability to say "no". But then man would have been little more than a fleshly "robot", and it would not have been love at all. True love means the possibility of not loving, and that is what makes it true: you have the chance to walk away, but you want to be with that person because of who they are.

And that is what God wanted.

 

Edited by RobertS
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 This required God's offer of salvation and man's responsibility to receive God's gift of eternal life by faith. God will never save anyone without their consent  It is to every Christians advantage to grow in the likeness of Christ.

 

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1 hour ago, DARRELX said:

Are you guys saying that it would be wrong for God to choose those who follow Him because it would violate their free will?

And or

That God would not choose some to be saved out of all humankind because that would not be fair to those who where not chosen?

And or

God would not harden some peoples hearts so that they cannot be saved, because that violates their right to salvation if given free will?

That would be No, No, and No.  So we need to go back to square one.

1. Are all humans sinners in need of salvation? YES

2. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? YES

3. Does God offer salvation (the gift of eternal life) to all? YES

In view of these truths, why then would God choose some for salvation and others for damnation?  Why would God predestine some for Heaven and others for Hell, if that violates all of the above?

So unless a Calvinist can prove from Scripture that those three truths are not true, he should simply abandon his misunderstanding of God and His ways. God cannot contradict Himself.

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54 minutes ago, Ezra said:

That would be No, No, and No.  So we need to go back to square one.

The square one you went back to I already answered in another thread to no avail so it would be pointless to repeat myself.

You said no to my question Are you guys saying that it would be wrong for God to choose those who follow Him because it would violate their free will?

Jesus had done this regarding the twelve disciples.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve.

John  15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.

They had no choice at all but it was determined completely by Jesus. So their free will was not respected and if Jesus can deny free will to twelve men he can deny it to every man.

You said no to my question That God would not choose some to be saved out of all humankind

This Jesus did with his disciples which He clearly states in Matthew  13:11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

So if Jesus can do this in one instance He can do it in every instance.

You said no to my question God would not harden some peoples hearts so that they cannot  be saved.

God had done this very thing in scripture.

Romans  9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So if God can do this with one man he can do it with others.

With God we have to start with the understanding that God can do whatever He wants rather then with a belief in what we think God is morally obligated to do for what He has made.

 

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28 minutes ago, DARRELX said:

With God we have to start with the understanding that God can do whatever He wants rather then with a belief in what we think God is morally obligated to do for what He has made.

I think that is a dandy idea, but people do not like to do that Darrelx.

It is popular, to subconsciously ask, "If I were God, how would I do it?"

The next step then, is to employ the logic of inferior human minds, not merely inferior because they are not God (whose ways are not our ways) but because they are damaged as a result of the fall.

So, armed with a broken mind we ask, "is it logical that . . . " instead of "What does the word say?"

If I were to go down that road, there would be no Hell, everyone would be saved, after all, because I so loved the world etc. God has the power to save all, He has the authority to save all, He even paid the price to save all, and says that He desires all to be saved. It is interesting to conceive of an all-powerful God who seemingly sends most people to Hell, an outcome that He could prevent, it He is loving in the way that some think He should be, and is as powerful as some think He is.

Without trying to think of excuses why God fails to do what he is able to do, and even alledgedly wants to do, I am comfortable with the idea that it is His universe, His rules, and His soveriegn choice to do as pleases Him, according to the pleasure of His will.

He is not answerable to me in the least, it is not my business to question why He sends people to Hell. I can wonder, for sure, but it is enough to know that His nature is such, that He can do what He wants and call it good, without my approval.

I do not find it strange, that He does not choose everyone to salvation, I find it marvelous, that He chooses to save anyone, since no one deserves it!!

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