The “sin lists” in the NT condemn all habitual sinners!

[Guest]

The good works that people do is because we are saved, not to “earn” or keep our salvation.

[choir loft]

18 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I think you have this somewhat backwards, though your heart is in the right place, and yes, repentance is needed, as there is no salvation without it. Where I think you have the cart before the horse, is not that we do not repent in order to receive salvation. 

You referred to salvation as a gift, but you should think about that wording.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death is what we get for sin, because we have earned it, it is a wage. Eternal life, salvation, is a free gift, we do nothing to earn it. We cannot repent out of sheer will power, our sin nature does not let us.

“None is righteous, no, not one;

no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one.”

No one understands, no one seeks God, no one does good, not even one!

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

That is the human condition, we are not capable of repentance on our own. We cannot even understand the things of God, until we have His Spirit.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

We must be in Jesus, or we are powerless.

I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

If we can do nothing, we cannot repent. We are slaves to sin. (See Romans 6). Slaves to sin, do not repent, they need to be born again, born from above, to have a new nature and is able to obey, able to repent. It depends on God to work in us, not us working our way to God. In Christ, we have the tools. (1 Cor 10:13)

In Acts 11:18, we read that “to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” And in 2 Timothy 2:25, Paul says that we must gently instruct those who oppose us in the hope that “God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.”

It is God who grants repentance. We do not repent and then get the "Gift" of salvation. Gifts are free, you do not work for them.

To be saved, we must be born from above, we need a new nature, the Spirit gives us that. (John 3)

The bottom line is that we are spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, hard hearted, slaves to sin and dead in them! We need to be rescued, we cannot save ourselves with works of repentance.

Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

So, the other bottom line is, that we so not repent to get salvation, we repent, because we have been changed, we repent because we ARE saved. The person who has merely professed Christ, and continues in sin, has every reason to wonder if they really have a new nature, without that new nature, we are not saved,

As born again people he hate sin, and really want to repent, and we are able, we have the tools. Our love of Christ is shown in our obedience to Him, obeying is something that now comes naturally, even though there is still part of our old nature, sin living in us. (Romans 7). Being born again equals a changed life. Not everyone who is saved, obeys God completely, we grow at different rated, but I think a lot of that is mostly us, not a shortcoming of His. However, we do grow, we do progress. There are some ups and downs in our lives, but the general trend is upward. If we do not greive at our sin, and earnestly try to live a Christlike live, than are we really saved?

So, as believers we have an obligation to repent as God has enabled us and caused us to desire earnestly.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

 

You quoted my post and generally agreed with it.

So what's all the fuss about?  

Your words proudly declare, in opposition to God's Word, that nobody can keep the LAW.  Therefore Christians take the low road and yield to SIN.  In doing so we declare to ourselves and to God either that 'we can't help ourselves' or that 'the devil made me do it.'   These excuses are tissue thin.  God doesn't buy it.

"For this commandment I give you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not in heaven, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?’ And it is not beyond the sea, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?’ But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it." - Deuteronomy 30:11-14

Q: What is the purpose of the LAW?

A: The purpose of the LAW is to convict of SIN.  

Do you not know, O reader, that most Americans and indeed most Christians don't know what SIN is?   The attitude is that SIN is something like religious naughtiness - not really something to get worked up about.

Consequently our moral compass points in the wrong direction ('if it feels good, do it").  We suffer violence in our streets, fight endless meaningless wars, watch our income shrivel before our eyes, suffer the indignity of a society gone wrong and a church that's become a joke in the eyes of the community.

Once upon a time, not so long ago, the church was a respected institution.  No one dared speak irreverently against it.  Today the LGBTQ community has usurped respectability once enjoyed by the Christian church - AND WE'VE LET THEM DO IT.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Instead of upholding the LAW, Christians choke on it as though it was something to be ashamed of, to be ignored and to be flushed down the toilet.

NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

Christians choke on these words because they don't know what they mean.  The LAW provides a pattern for God's plan of redemption.  It points to Christ who can save us.  It tells us how to live AFTER we are justified by the blood God shed upon the cross.  It even provides a blueprint of the actual layout of heaven.

Christians choke on the LAW claiming its dietary restrictions are absurd and then go out and buy into every extreme diet that comes down the road.  

Christians choke on the LAW claiming Jewish traditions won't save anybody - AND THEN spend more attention than is appropriate on Christian traditions that can't save either.  Christmas Easter and the holidays of pagan ritual such as Halloween, garden statues of Mary and even Holy Communion can't save anybody.  

Christians choke on the LAW even as they nurse anti-Semitic theology and overt dislike of Jews.  Meanwhile they embrace every pagan tradition known to man and justify the act with perverse versions of scripture taken out of context. 

The basic issues I mentioned earlier don't seem to be in question.  What IS questioned is our ability to observe them.   Childish responses claiming "everybody else does it" don't carry any currency in heaven.

It's not a SIN to be born human.  It's not impossible to keep the LAW.  Indeed we can't be saved without it.  

It IS possible to rise above the LAW with God's help, but it DOES require work on our part (read the book of James - "faith without works is dead").

Neither of us are arguing about the wages of SIN or the gift of God.  

What IS important is that living by the LAW has been abandoned by the church.  What IS important is that an attitude of passive indifference toward God has become the status quo in our churches.

God hates passive indifference.  To Him it's the same as active malice.   As has been written earlier, it is our duty to obey God.   What has God ordained for us to obey but His LAW?  Why then is it disdained ignored and foolishly hated?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

Edited November 11, 2021 by choir loft

[Omegaman 3.0]

7 hours ago, choir loft said:

You quoted my post and generally agreed with it.

So what's all the fuss about?  

Your words proudly declare, in opposition to God's Word, that nobody can keep the LAW.  Therefore Christians take the low road and yield to SIN.  In doing so we declare to ourselves and to God either that 'we can't help ourselves' or that 'the devil made me do it.'   These excuses are tissue thin.  God doesn't buy it.

I "proudly declare, in opposition to God's Word, that nobody can keep the LAW"?  OK maybe I misunderstand the Bible, I do not have perfect understanding but I have to yield to what I believe it says.

I would ask you, are you as perfect as Jesus was? If not, then you, and everyone else on earth make my point!

We (people) fall into two categories, those who sin and are not forgiven, and those who sin, and are forgiven. There is no gray about sin,  you are either flawless, or you (and I) are a sinner.

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

You may have read my reply, but you seem to have failed to understand it, nor to agree with the scriptures that I posted. Since you are disagreeing with that, I take no offence, and there is no need to restate the obvious, my point was already made, so why repeat it.

The difference is, that apart from regeneration, repentance is impossible, and has never been done. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, right? Believers will be glorified, at His return. Until then, we have His faithful promise. I provided plenty ot texts demonstrating that there is a problem, that man sins and is destined for destruction apart from grace through faith. For reasons of your own, you choose to see repentance (works) as necessary for salvation, while I see regeneration, grace through faith, as leading to the repentance of the faithful, BECAUSE the have been born again.

You can disagree, that is fine. The good news is that you do not have to believe what I believe to be saved, nor do I need to believe what you say in order to be saved. God does the saving, that is His choice, His right, His loving action on those of us who do not deserve it. You can go ahead, and work for your salvation if you want to, but I shall continues to rely on God's grace for mine, and repent because it is what I do as a believer whose nature has be changed by God Himself.

I like an analogy I heard recently. You can look at a tree, and not know what kind of tree it is. When it produces apples, you know it is an apple tree. It was already an apple tree, before it produced fruit. So it is with those that God has chosen to salvation, something He did before the foundation of the world. If you are one of those, you will produce fruit, but you were chosen before you ever did anything.

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9

It is totally God's sovereign choice and mercy and grace, not based on what we do. We do not repent to be saved, we repent because we ARE saved, but I digress!

Be bless, and go repent you heart out, lol!  

[Bawb]

You bring up a VERY good point about repentance. Once you are saved, you realize/ know the cost of your sin. It was YOUR fault, MY fault and EVERY OTHER SINNER's fault that an innocent man had to die on the cross that we wretched sinners would be saved. If that doesn't make you sorrowful, regretful and full of repentance, you SHOULD be spewed out as a lukewarm believer! 

Also, an addition to your fruit tree analogy...

Do you ask a tree what it believes? No, you look at the fruit it bears...
 

[choir loft]

On 11/11/2021 at 4:47 PM, Bawb said:

You bring up a VERY good point about repentance. Once you are saved, you realize/ know the cost of your sin. It was YOUR fault, MY fault and EVERY OTHER SINNER's fault that an innocent man had to die on the cross that we wretched sinners would be saved. If that doesn't make you sorrowful, regretful and full of repentance, you SHOULD be spewed out as a lukewarm believer! 

Also, an addition to your fruit tree analogy...

Do you ask a tree what it believes? No, you look at the fruit it bears...
 

Trees don't need salvation in the blood of Christ.  We do.

Suggesting that one trip to the altar requires no further REPENTANCE is entirely off the rails Biblically speaking.

"UNLESS I WASH YOU YOU HAVE NO PART IN ME." - Jesus as quoted in John 13:8b

This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. - 1 John 5:6

The blood of Jesus is shed for the redemption of many, according to the LAW.  Benefits of the blood are applied by faith when believers ask for it.  This is initially taught by the passover requirement of blood being applied to the doorposts and lintel of one's house so as to cause the destroyer (death) to pass over those who were inside. In the same way, those who accept the blood of Christ shed for them inherit eternal life.   BUT IT DOES NOT END THERE.

Washing of water is a reference to cleansing of SIN after meeting Christ.  If Jesus needed to demonstrate this principle to His disciples does not the same principle of spiritual responsibility apply to us today?

As we go through life we acquire the vagaries of SIN.  We stumble into SIN.  No one is exempt from this fact of life.  We struggle to remain clean, but simply being exposed to the world risks SIN.  

REPENTANCE must be repeated so as to be forgiven of this newly acquired SIN.  Shall we hide our wickedness from God who sees all?  Certainly not.  Shall we play games with God by declaring our church membership card is up to date and that He cannot hold us accountable for our SINs?  Absolutely not.

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. - Galatians 6:7

Do we want to be taught of God the folly of SIN after being accepted for redemption?  

If we refuse God's gentile admonitions and repeatedly SIN we shall pay a terrible price for which there is no healing.

Therefore it is of major importance that we run and not walk the paths of REPENTANCE in our relationship with Christ.  He is faithful and just to forgive us of our SINs and wickedness (1 John 1:9) but the caveat is that we must repent and ask for it.  

Indeed it is time and past time for judgment to begin with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) because of our hidden iniquities and masked wickedness. 

Do not think O man that you can SIN and escape God's justice.  One way or the other your SINs will find you out.  (Numbers 32:23)

It is time to REPENT and seek peace with God.  Anyone who tells you differently is an agent of the opposer, the devil itself.

Spiritual responsibility is not taught in churches today because it's linked to repentance.  Preachers risk losing donation$ when they speak of repentance.   One must not tell people they need to repent when they think they are holier than everybody else.  Our churches are all about the money, not responsibility before God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited November 13, 2021 by choir loft