woundeddog Posted July 9, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,370 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 1,054 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/21/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/18/1868 Share Posted July 9, 2016 okay- once again I am not proposing new doctrine but just pondering something~~~~~ ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them. ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that creation itself is enough witness of God to let a person make a choice of worshiping God or not. Since we know that Jesus was the actual creator if an indigenous person who never heard the Bible Gospel but recognized that there was a Creator, wouldn't he in fact be trusting, or at least recognizing Jesus Therefore being eligible for salvation by that fact alone?? we often hear the antichristian argument that how can God be a loving God if he sends people to hell just because they never heard the gospel--- it seems to me that maybe creation it self is enough witness for a person to believe in the Creator Jesus and be saved---- even if they didn't know what his name was~~~~ yes that passage from Romans indicates that people did reject creations witness but I would assume that some did not reject it~~~~ so, what do you guys think????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,825 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2016 7 hours ago, woundeddog said: okay- once again I am not proposing new doctrine but just pondering something~~~~~ ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them. ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that creation itself is enough witness of God to let a person make a choice of worshiping God or not. Since we know that Jesus was the actual creator if an indigenous person who never heard the Bible Gospel but recognized that there was a Creator, wouldn't he in fact be trusting, or at least recognizing Jesus Therefore being eligible for salvation by that fact alone?? we often hear the antichristian argument that how can God be a loving God if he sends people to hell just because they never heard the gospel--- it seems to me that maybe creation it self is enough witness for a person to believe in the Creator Jesus and be saved---- even if they didn't know what his name was~~~~ yes that passage from Romans indicates that people did reject creations witness but I would assume that some did not reject it~~~~ so, what do you guys think????? Mmmmm............,. I wish you were Paul and I can ask you some questions, because a lot of people see many things between the lines, and make judging sermons and they don't want to be question about it. What is the matter with you, are you sure you want to be different, are you sure you want to go through this baptism? How did you get this inspiration, who has bless the covering of the top of your head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woundeddog Posted July 9, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,370 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 1,054 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/21/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/18/1868 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: How did you get this inspiration, who has bless the covering of the top of your head? there is a saying that if you find a new doctrine you better go back and read the Bible again--- there is nothing new under the sun-- I am just wondering if creation itself is enough witness to lead a person to salvation if there is no other witness~~~ ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,825 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2016 X 9 minutes ago, woundeddog said: there is a saying that if you find a new doctrine you better go back and read the Bible again--- there is nothing new under the sun-- I am just wondering if creation itself is enough witness to lead a person to salvation if there is no other witness~~~ ! I am not quite sure that anyone can even suggest something like that, but here I am facing the fact, that someone has, so let's make a go of it, because it is here and it needs to be discuss. First of all Paul has never even suggest anything like that. I can give a single word answer, but then we are not taking a survey of yes and no's. I am an Ancient person living at anytime around Paul's times and before, because Paul referring to times his presence and his times past. The culture of the people that time (the Idolaters), it is deferent than the culture of the indeginous people. . So we are call to make two different examinations, or perhaps one general. The answer is No, no one is saved, and No one is damned. And this statement is for AD, and no BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Jesus said that no one comes to the Farher but through Him. Everyone must have the choice of accepting Jesus as their Savior. In the OT, it was faith in a coming Redeemer. Now Christ comes to people who are isolated from the Gospel even through dreams. But everyone must choose. Nothing is too difficult for GOD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,825 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2016 On 7/9/2016 at 6:50 PM, woundeddog said: there is a saying that if you find a new doctrine you better go back and read the Bible again--- there is nothing new under the sun-- I am just wondering if creation itself is enough witness to lead a person to salvation if there is no other witness~~~ ! Hello WDG, this post is really something, . I see the question, On 7/9/2016 at 6:50 PM, woundeddog said: if creation itself is enough witness to lead a person to salvation if there is no other witness~~~ ! Paul look at the Greeks, and not only them, who show the creation, and by examining nature and their society, they come to the knowledge that some individuals are sailor, others builders of ships, some farmers, others building homes, some shoe makers or workers of iron, and so on, they never see an someone who could do all things. So they come to the conclusion that it is the same thing with the creation. There is the God of the Sun, the moon, the see, the arts and so on. Here we see that wittness of the creation alone led the people to deception without knowing it. At the same time it was God who had abandon them, and reject them. Now we see the aboriginals whom Paul never met, and having a nomadic lifestyle, sojourning in their country, without agriculture and houses, they too had the wittnesses of the nature and had developed a different structure of beliefs than the Greeks. And it is strange if you look at their beliefs, and again just the wittness of the creation alone led them to deception. What we are suppose to make out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woundeddog Posted July 11, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,370 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 1,054 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/21/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/18/1868 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: There is the God of the Sun, the moon, the see, the arts and so on. Well Paul says they worship the creature rather than the creator--- so I am wondering if creation can be a witness that leads to salvation, or do we just naturally turn in the wrong direction?? Have any indigenous people or individuals actually come to the idea of a benevolent creator God that shows mercy and requires nothing but trust from his worshipers?? i dont know~~ I heard a story awhile back and dont know if its "Christian folklore" or true about missionaries that came upon a remote native tribe and when they started to share the Gospel an old woman said to them " What took you so long? I knew there was a God and have been asking him to send someone to tell us more"-- if that in fact is true it would seem that creation would lead in the right direction. if its just folklore i would be highly disappointed some day I am going to catch a frog and put him in a pan of water and start to heat it and see if he jumps out or cooks---- I have heard so many times that sin is like that-- when we participate its like lukewarm water but as we continue it heats till we are in boiling water and don't know it dont know if thats true or folk lore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,825 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2016 Now we are looking at how the Holly Spirit has approch and prepare some people before a missionary goes to them with the good news of the Gospel, this is the same as when Jesus told Paul, do not leave Corinth, I have some people in this city, waiting or prepared to accept the Gospel. We see divenation spirits revealing to the carrier that the Gospel it is truth. We see the Macedonia Man the Warden a prepared vessel, longing for something. Some divine mission, and arrangements. Divine appointments. Don't you think, that all the time someone had to be sent to declare the Gospel. Today we have other means of communication. The wittness of the creation alone will lead people to deception, even worshiping the Creator but not having the knowledge and see the need of the Savior. And the resuraction, and the Cross........ and the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted July 27, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2016 On 10/07/2016 at 0:59 AM, woundeddog said: okay- once again I am not proposing new doctrine but just pondering something~~~~~ ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them. ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that creation itself is enough witness of God to let a person make a choice of worshiping God or not. Since we know that Jesus was the actual creator if an indigenous person who never heard the Bible Gospel but recognized that there was a Creator, wouldn't he in fact be trusting, or at least recognizing Jesus Therefore being eligible for salvation by that fact alone?? we often hear the antichristian argument that how can God be a loving God if he sends people to hell just because they never heard the gospel--- it seems to me that maybe creation it self is enough witness for a person to believe in the Creator Jesus and be saved---- even if they didn't know what his name was~~~~ yes that passage from Romans indicates that people did reject creations witness but I would assume that some did not reject it~~~~ so, what do you guys think????? God has revealed to mankind in His Word, His method of dealing with those who have never heard the gospel. There are many billions of people who in the past, the present, and in the near future before Christ returns who have not and will not even hear the Name of Jesus mentioned, or the gospel preached. As mentioned in a previous post, Paul stated in Rom. 2:12-16 that God will do right by every man according to the light they have recieved. He said, "For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without law: and as many have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steward George Posted July 27, 2016 Group: Steward Followers: 110 Topic Count: 10,465 Topics Per Day: 1.26 Content Count: 27,764 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 15,436 Days Won: 128 Joined: 06/30/2001 Status: Online Birthday: 09/21/1971 Steward Share Posted July 27, 2016 I suggest reading -- ETERNITY IN THEIR HEARTS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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