GoldenEagle Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.82 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Rick_Parker said: If they are a new "Christian," then they are apostate if they believe that homosexuality is acceptable to GOD. Or if someone is openly living in homosexuality they need to hear the truth. We who have known Jesus longer and as more experienced Christians in the faith should share the truth in love. The problem I see is that we "know" Biblical things but have a hard time pointing those newer to the faith to the truth found in God's Word. This thread is meant to help other dig into the Word to understand why we believe what we believe. At least that's the hope right? ?? God bless GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.82 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 7 hours ago, kwikphilly said: Okay,so then it is safe to say you are speaking about making the decision to be water baptized ,right,,,,,absolutely not & I think ay pastor who encourages this for a homosexual who refuses to forsake his carnal desires is really causing that person to stumble ,deceiving them Hiya sister! Yes for clarification that's what I'm talking about. Let me clarify a bit further... Yeah one would have to precisely define what one meant by "openly" homosexual. Which I failed to do. Firstly, because there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. That is, being attracted to and lusting after people of the same sex is no more sinful that being attracted to and lusting after people of the opposite sex. It's what one does with that attraction which determines right/wrong. Attraction in and of itself is morally neutral. Lusting in your mind and acting on it is the sin. Feeling angry is not morally wrong. Sometimes situations happen that cause us to feel such things. But it's being angry and acting on that anger say by name calling, harmful action, or even {in extreme cases} murder is the sin. So, if by "openly homosexual" one means simply that the person openly acknowledges that their attraction is of a homosexual nature, then that is no more morally problematic in itself than someone admitting they are attracted to people of the opposite sex. But if by "openly" one means "practicing", then that is altogether a different issue - that of a sexual nature. But again, it is no more sinful than heterosexual forms of sexual acts and therefor can be dealt with in the church in the same way. This is what I was referring to. Those who are practicing homosexuals. What do you think? God Bless GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2016 5 hours ago, GoldenEagle said: Hiya sister! Yes for clarification that's what I'm talking about. Let me clarify a bit further... Yeah one would have to precisely define what one meant by "openly" homosexual. Which I failed to do. Firstly, because there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. That is, being attracted to and lusting after people of the same sex is no more sinful that being attracted to and lusting after people of the opposite sex. It's what one does with that attraction which determines right/wrong. Attraction in and of itself is morally neutral. Lusting in your mind and acting on it is the sin. Feeling angry is not morally wrong. Sometimes situations happen that cause us to feel such things. But it's being angry and acting on that anger say by name calling, harmful action, or even {in extreme cases} murder is the sin. So, if by "openly homosexual" one means simply that the person openly acknowledges that their attraction is of a homosexual nature, then that is no more morally problematic in itself than someone admitting they are attracted to people of the opposite sex. But if by "openly" one means "practicing", then that is altogether a different issue - that of a sexual nature. But again, it is no more sinful than heterosexual forms of sexual acts and therefor can be dealt with in the church in the same way. This is what I was referring to. Those who are practicing homosexuals. What do you think? God Bless GE So this poor fellow who has gay tendencies is in a world of torment, because he knows it is forbidden but he can't help himself feeling what he does. Now he hears of lust not really being the sin, but the following through with actions is. (Yet Jesus said if this is going on inside your head - it is as good as you are doing it already. No difference between the thinking and acting here) So we have this popular 'gospel of torment,' where the poor sinner battles to remain socially acceptable in the church, but is never at peace, and crying inside for comfort. He feels short of heaven and yet cannot enjoy earth. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a gospel which could transform the sinner in his very mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.82 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 4 hours ago, Kan said: So this poor fellow who has gay tendencies is in a world of torment, because he knows it is forbidden but he can't help himself feeling what he does. Now he hears of lust not really being the sin, but the following through with actions is. (Yet Jesus said if this is going on inside your head - it is as good as you are doing it already. No difference between the thinking and acting here) So we have this popular 'gospel of torment,' where the poor sinner battles to remain socially acceptable in the church, but is never at peace, and crying inside for comfort. He feels short of heaven and yet cannot enjoy earth. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a gospel which could transform the sinner in his very mind? Please re-read the post. Temptation is not sin. A heterosexual guy noticing and being tempted by a pretty girl is not sin. It's fine to say or think wow that's a beautiful woman. It's where his thoughts go that after that where the sin can occur. So yes having lustful thoughts or acting on lust is where the sin occurs. Not the temptation. It is true that God can indeed make all things new. 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Another perspective on this issue is we baptize the "sinner" no matter what sin or sins they are struggle with. Be that someone who is a homosexual relationship, living in a heterosexual relationship outside of marriage, etc. Then trust that God will change them. That the Holy Spirit can be trusted to show them the truth. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 304 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,094 Content Per Day: 4.65 Reputation: 27,773 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2016 Quote Posted 10 hours ago · Report post 17 hours ago, kwikphilly said: Okay,so then it is safe to say you are speaking about making the decision to be water baptized ,right,,,,,absolutely not & I think ay pastor who encourages this for a homosexual who refuses to forsake his carnal desires is really causing that person to stumble ,deceiving them Hiya sister! Yes for clarification that's what I'm talking about. Let me clarify a bit further... Yeah one would have to precisely define what one meant by "openly" homosexual. Which I failed to do. Firstly, because there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. That is, being attracted to and lusting after people of the same sex is no more sinful that being attracted to and lusting after people of the opposite sex. It's what one does with that attraction which determines right/wrong. Attraction in and of itself is morally neutral. Lusting in your mind and acting on it is the sin. Feeling angry is not morally wrong. Sometimes situations happen that cause us to feel such things. But it's being angry and acting on that anger say by name calling, harmful action, or even {in extreme cases} murder is the sin. So, if by "openly homosexual" one means simply that the person openly acknowledges that their attraction is of a homosexual nature, then that is no more morally problematic in itself than someone admitting they are attracted to people of the opposite sex. But if by "openly" one means "practicing", then that is altogether a different issue - that of a sexual nature. But again, it is no more sinful than heterosexual forms of sexual acts and therefor can be dealt with in the church in the same way. This is what I was referring to. Those who are practicing homosexuals. What do you think? God Bless GE Hiya Brother! lol....... Thank you so much for the clarification,it is important to me to fully understand so that we are on the same page from the get go,again,I appreciate you taking the time to do so(as you always do So,I did understand the question & I completely agree with you........I believe the churches or pastors/preachers are partly to blame and are actually condoning "sin" by allowing a "practicing" homesexual to be water baptized.......Sin is not acceptable and any "lust" is sin(as you said) Quote Short Answer: No. Why? Repentance precedes baptism. posted by Ezra Here is an example,an example that I think will explain how it "should" be done..... At the church I attend(small congregation,less than 100)there is always an "altar call",the time for anyone who,on that day) decides to Receive Christ as their Lord & Savior can come to the altar and openly confess......as far as we know(not knowing their heart?) they are Saved,Halleluyah! We had a guest come to our church,he was obviously gay or very feminine looking,he attended a few times & told several of us that he was homosexual.........one day at Service he got up to go to altar,he was sobbing & just so happy to come to Christ,he was Saved that day,,,,,,we all rejoiced in the Joy of His Salvation He continued to come to church & he was very tormented by the spirit of homosexuality,he had not yet been delivered of this evil but greatly convicted.......it was apparent that a change was taking place in this "practicing" homosexual.He wanted to be baptized(water)and spoke to the Pastor about it,the Pastor told him that he would not baptize him with water until he was fully committed to Christ..... The man had talked with us(the Brethren) & the Pastor for many months,he prayed,we prayed together and he continually sought the Lord in His Word until finally he was fully repentant and forsook his flesh,he was delivered Then he was water baptized,after he Received Gods Truth and made the decision to be water baptized,proclaiming Jesus to the world Today this man is in Ministry,he works with practicing homosexuals that claim to be Saved & were deceived into believing that they are Saved even though they continue in sin,they believe this is how they are born & "cannot help it",,,,,,which is a lie straight from the devil! One is not born perverted,they are not born deviants.......just as we are not born with the wrong gender,it is a choice,a carnal desire,a sin of the flesh................not only is society making allowances for perversions but also the churches,preachers & some Christians,this is a pity............So my answer remains the same,each & every sinner(no matter what the sin) is invited to come to the foot of the Cross by the Grace of God and they can choose Salvation,,,,,,,,,,,,,if they continue in sin,my guess is they are not actively seeking God,,likely were never Saved due to an unrepentant heart and should not be water baptized...........they would only be fooling themselves,water does not wash away sin,the Blood of Christ does With love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2016 On 7/9/2016 at 0:22 PM, GoldenEagle said: Should a person who is openly homosexual be baptized? GE Baptized unto What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2016 3 hours ago, kwikphilly said: ...........they would only be fooling themselves,water does not wash away sin,the Blood of Christ does With love-in Christ,Kwik Yes there must be a baptism of repentance unto salvation first before an outward baptism of water. If any man be in Christ he is a "new creature" (born again) the old has passed away and behold all things made new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted July 11, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2016 The above three posts make it plain to me, that baptism by water comes after repentence and the forsaking of the old sinful life, similar to marriage which is a public declaration of a love relationship that should be established before the ceremony. ("Should be" because arranged marriages don't necessarily cater for that). Baptism is not an initiation but a confession. So if a sinner is baptized without leaving the old life... the ceremony, which represents the sinner entering the purpose of the death and resurrection of Christ, is corrupted. Baptism doesn't change a person, but it is part of the path to heaven, ordained by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted July 11, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2016 21 hours ago, GoldenEagle said: Please re-read the post. Temptation is not sin. A heterosexual guy noticing and being tempted by a pretty girl is not sin. It's fine to say or think wow that's a beautiful woman. It's where his thoughts go that after that where the sin can occur. So yes having lustful thoughts or acting on lust is where the sin occurs. Not the temptation. It is true that God can indeed make all things new. 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Another perspective on this issue is we baptize the "sinner" no matter what sin or sins they are struggle with. Be that someone who is a homosexual relationship, living in a heterosexual relationship outside of marriage, etc. Then trust that God will change them. That the Holy Spirit can be trusted to show them the truth. God bless, GE Thankyou for that correction, my apology for slackness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted July 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) I suppose not many people realize that water baptism is a public testimony of faith in identifying with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. But in order to truly testify, one must not only have faith in Jesus, (that is to believe) but also have been willing or at the least a desire to turn from all known sin (repent). Because the then visual testimony of water baptism is the public affirmation that the person has died to self and turning to a new life in Christ. A person who is exhibiting his or her sins in full view of everyone is a person who can then be said to be openly sinning without the slightest hint of a desire to turn from self and turn to God. In fact we could say that the person is then proud of what they really should be ashamed of. So then his or her testimony is nothing more than a meaningless ritual to be seen by men. It is a very shallow testimony indeed because the person isn't planning on turning from a known sinful lifestyle. The question remains should a person who is living in a sinful lifestyle openly for all to see, make a public proclamation that they not only believe but also have turned from sin. I would have to say no. For the bible tells us that in addition to believing, we must also have a desire to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. A person who desires to remain in a sinful lifestyle after having gone through water baptism is really telling everyone publicly that he or she really doesn't believe God's written word. They are just going through the motions and thus making it nothing more than a ritual. Edited July 11, 2016 by giggling appy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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