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Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)


Hawkeye

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So I wanted to open up for public discussion (albeit, I have had this discussion in chat with various people) rethinking hell.

From my understanding, there are two views of hell. The Traditionalist and the Conditional view.The traditional view of hell is the one we are most familiar with. Man dies, unsaved man goes to hell (lake of fire and brimstone), and he burns forever. Where the Christian goes on to heaven and lives forever.  The Conditional view argues that eternal life/immortal soul is conditional on salvation. (This is also called Annihilation View) and, depending on your level of conditionalism (full or partial), said man is consumed immediately, or he burns for awhile and then is consumed.

In the interest of making this an open discussion/dialogue, I will say that according to my understanding of scripture, there are verses that could support either view. Because of this, it's not a "core" salvational, or even a divisive issue. I do find it fascinating, and for a long time I fought against it. 

Here are some key verses often used to defend CI (Conditional Immortality) You see the parallels between perishing (which means, in essence) ceasing to exist. And eternal life as a gift for believers alone.

John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his only son and that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have everlasting life.

Romans 6:23- For the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life.

Death has always meant death, cessation of life.

So we also see, in the scripture that various means of non-Christians leads to death. Some examples:

They are Destroyed, wiped out all remembrance of them (Isaiah 26.14)

Like Sodom and Gomorrah: turned to ashes, and condemned to extinction (2 Peter 2.6)

I do have lots more examples but this post is getting long. So I look forward to some intelligent discussion. To fully understand it, it goes along with what happens right after death, and the final Great White Throne Judgement. They all 3 go hand-in-hand typically. 

If you have Amazon Prime and are willing to watch a documentary about it, watch "Hell & Mr. Fudge".

There is also a widely accepted "masterpiece" book on the topic by Edward Fudge. The title is "The Fire That Consumes" and is a schoalary read, not an overnight read by any means - but is eye-opening.

 

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I've been on both sides of this subject during my Christian life and finally one weekend while in prayer, the thought came to me as to why I accepted Jesus as my Lord.  Is he my fire insurance policy....    after a long ponder I decided that neither side of the subject was my concern for I had asked Jesus into my life because I really considered him the coolest dude anyone could ever meet and I want to spend eternity with him and the alternative really didn't matter.

Does it really count if you run to Jesus to avoid hell?

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3 minutes ago, other one said:

I've been on both sides of this subject during my Christian life and finally one weekend while in prayer, the thought came to me as to why I accepted Jesus as my Lord.  Is he my fire insurance policy....    after a long ponder I decided that neither side of the subject was my concern for I had asked Jesus into my life because I really considered him the coolest dude anyone could ever meet and I want to spend eternity with him and the alternative really didn't matter.

Does it really count if you run to Jesus to avoid hell?

No, it doesn't really "count" I would say. But, I just do not see scripture evidence that holds it's water for the traditional view. For instance...

Mark describes hell as a place “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48) Jesus is warning of the curse for disobedience which is death ( Deut 28:26) and drawing a parallel to Isaiah’s description of where the dead bodies will be an abhorrent sight.

Do worms eat live flesh? NO. They eat dead flesh, corpses. 

I see the value in what you are saying, but I also find it an interesting thing to study. And yes, it's a long and in depth study- took me many years, to finally draw this conclusion. ;)

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I think it is important to understand the ways the Bible looks at death.    The Bible, beyond the cessation of physical life views death spiritually and in that spiritual view, fallen man, without Jesus is separated from God, the source of eternal life.  That is the default spiritual condition of all men.  Spiritual death has its origin in Adam's sin (Rom. 5:12-21).  We can live forever. spiritually, without eternal life.   It is not necessarily the cessation of actual, conscious existence.   For those who choose continued separation from God there remains only one existence when their bodies expire.  John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 are speaking of spiritual death, which is not the cessation of existence.

There may appear to be verses that support the CI view, but they don't when examined in their immediate context.  

Isaiah 26:14 is talking about the city of Babylon and its eventual demise.  It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, talking about Hell or man's existence in Hell. 

II Pet. 2:6 is talking about the physical destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is not a commentary on Hell.  When looking Scriptures that actually talk about hell, there is no CI view.  

The CI view actually diminishes the importance of hell.   Hell isn't as important if you are going to be burned up and cease to exist after a short season.   Hell becomes infinitely more important if there is no relief, if one is going to have to experience the horrors of hell for all eternity with no end in sight.  That reality makes even more urgent, the preaching of the Gospel.   And the importance a person places on Jesus and salvation is directly proportionate to the importance they place on Hell.

I would disagree that wanting to be saved from hell does not count as a good reason to be saved.   That's what God saved us from.   He doesn't want us to go to hell.   He warns us not to reject His offer of eternal life on the grounds that doing so would cause us to end up in Hell.   If God doesn't want us to go to hell, it is proper for us want to be saved so as not to go there.   That should be our main motivation.

 

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye said:

In the interest of making this an open discussion/dialogue, I will say that according to my understanding of scripture, there are verses that could support either view.

Actually a proper study of Hell does not allow for any ambiguity. Hell (the Lake of Fire) was primarily created for the Devil and his angels, which means that evil spirit beings will remain in Hell in eternal torment for their sins and rebellion against God.  That will also ensure that for eternity the New Heavens and the New Earth will be free from sin and evil.

Secondarily, those who reject the Gospel and reject Christ (as well as those who worship Satan and the Beast) will also be in the Lake of Fire. Just one passage should suffice to show that this is eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

"For ever and ever" means exactly that.  But the cults have been attacking this doctrine for a very long time, and now those attacks are being accepted as true by many.

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1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I would disagree that wanting to be saved from hell does not count as a good reason to be saved.   That's what God saved us from.   He doesn't want us to go to hell.   He warns us not to reject His offer of eternal life on the grounds that doing so would cause us to end up in Hell.   If God doesn't want us to go to hell, it is proper for us want to be saved so as not to go there.   That should be our main motivation.

Love me or I'll burn you for ever and ever...

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12 minutes ago, other one said:

Love me or I'll burn you for ever and ever...

No, that is an incorrect spin on it.    Jesus loved so we would not have to go to Hell.   He is not burning us.  Hell is not God's retaliation upon sinners.  It is the consequence of rejecting God's offer of eternal life.  

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Blessings Hawkeye....

     I agree 100% with Shiloh & Ezra,,,,,,,,,,,,hell is eternal,the torment never ends for those in hell and it was never intended for man but for those rebellious angels

The importance of understanding that a person does eternally exist spiritually is,again ,what makes preaching the Gospel an urgent matter....no one is guaranteed tomorrow but everyone is guaranteed forever.....it is bad enough that atheists believe they will simply cease to exist but when Christians fall into that deception it is just terrible     

Most the time when I am faced with a very "hard to love" unbeliever,all I have to do is think of what lies ahead of them,,,,,,keeps LOVE in my heart,compassion,mercy,patience & sympathy        We must not believe any of the enemy's bald face lies,why would Jesus have to take our place if there were little or no consequence to our actions......ceasing to exist would be the same as going to bed for the night,who remembers anything?           With love-in Christ,kwik

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4 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

John is using hyperbole here, to try and explain a vision he saw. (By the way, you should post a verse location reference for clarity).

Anyway, We should know here that smoke does not always equal fire. You can have a fire that was just put out, and the smoke will continue to rise- it's a mere vapor or memory of that which was once there. Furthermore the smoke rises forever, it doesn't say their torment is forever. Rather, the memory of torment, or another simpler way of putting it would be the final result of their judgement will be their complete absence.

We also have to look at the verb tenses in this passage. 

"Rev 14:9-11 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 

The verb tense changes in the passage from present, to future, and back to present again. the angel tells in advance of fate that will befall those who worship the beast. Then, the angel speaks of their total defeat. Then, the angel changes back to the present tense. The last verse is saying that unbelievers currently have no rest day or night because of the fate that awaits them.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Hawkeye....

     I agree 100% with Shiloh & Ezra,,,,,,,,,,,,hell is eternal,the torment never ends for those in hell and it was never intended for man but for those rebellious angels

 

HELL is eternal yes. As in Gehenna, the physical place with fire & brimstone. And yes it will exist for eternity, because we see at the Great White Throne, the beast,, false prophet and Satan are tossed in. It exists for eternity, but fire by nature consumes. It may leave ashes and remnants, but it destroys. 

But we also have to know that HELL is mentioned many times and is a mis-translation. Such as, when Jesus was said to have gone into hell to preach- Well no, the root word there is Sheol or Hades, which is simply the underworld. The word Gehenna is the word for the lake of fire. Though modern society uses hell as the word for both. 

The Immortal Soul for all mankind, comes not from The Bible- but from Plato.

“And the same may be said of the immortal: if the immortal is also imperishable, the soul when attacked by death cannot perish; for the preceding argument shows that the soul will not admit of death, or ever be dead, any more than three or the odd number will admit of the even” –Socrates quoted in Plato’s Phaedo

Over time, this Greek Philosophy somehow creeped into the early church and was eventually accepted that "all humans have an immortal soul"

But other verses point to destruction, death- (Cease to exist) Of soul, not just body.

So the wicked shall perish before God. (Psalms 68:2)
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. (Psalms 1:6)
Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.(James 5:20)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. ( Matt 10:28)    The soul who sins shall die. (Ezek 18:20)
You mention ceasing to exist not leaving them with a memory: not true.

If we look at the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20, what does it say?

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and  books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books,according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here we see 2 sets of books. We see the books of deeds (plural) and the book of life.  Now the book of deeds being the sins that everyone has committed on earth are recorded in those books, and they are separate from the book of life. Now these books of deeds, are how the unbelievers will be judged. It seems to me that their punishment is conditional on their deeds. We see that those who were in the book of life, well the book of life obviously trumps the books of deeds.  We see in scripture, where punishment is more severe for certain individuals. Example:

Matthew 23:14, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation,"

Matthew 10:15, "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

So one can assume in the context of Revelation 20, that there are degrees of punishment. So I'm not saying they just simple immediately cease to exist, but that they do have punishment.

 

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