Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[Hawkeye]

On 7/12/2016 at 10:55 AM, Hawkeye said:

HELL is eternal yes. As in Gehenna, the physical place with fire & brimstone. And yes it will exist for eternity, because we see at the Great White Throne, the beast,, false prophet and Satan are tossed in. It exists for eternity, but fire by nature consumes. It may leave ashes and remnants, but it destroys. 

But we also have to know that HELL is mentioned many times and is a mis-translation. Such as, when Jesus was said to have gone into hell to preach- Well no, the root word there is Sheol or Hades, which is simply the underworld. The word Gehenna is the word for the lake of fire. Though modern society uses hell as the word for both. 

The Immortal Soul for all mankind, comes not from The Bible- but from Plato.

“And the same may be said of the immortal: if the immortal is also imperishable, the soul when attacked by death cannot perish; for the preceding argument shows that the soul will not admit of death, or ever be dead, any more than three or the odd number will admit of the even” –Socrates quoted in Plato’s Phaedo

Over time, this Greek Philosophy somehow creeped into the early church and was eventually accepted that "all humans have an immortal soul"

But other verses point to destruction, death- (Cease to exist) Of soul, not just body.

So the wicked shall perish before God. (Psalms 68:2)
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. (Psalms 1:6)
Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.(James 5:20)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. ( Matt 10:28)    The soul who sins shall die. (Ezek 18:20)
You mention ceasing to exist not leaving them with a memory: not true.

If we look at the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20, what does it say?

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and  books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books,according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here we see 2 sets of books. We see the books of deeds (plural) and the book of life.  Now the book of deeds being the sins that everyone has committed on earth are recorded in those books, and they are separate from the book of life. Now these books of deeds, are how the unbelievers will be judged. It seems to me that their punishment is conditional on their deeds. We see that those who were in the book of life, well the book of life obviously trumps the books of deeds.  We see in scripture, where punishment is more severe for certain individuals. Example:

Matthew 23:14, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation,"

Matthew 10:15, "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

So one can assume in the context of Revelation 20, that there are degrees of punishment. So I'm not saying they just simple immediately cease to exist, but that they do have punishment.

 

This ^

[Willa]

The fact remains that it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement.  It is He Who turns us from sinfulness to Christ's loving provision of eternal bliss and forgiveness.  . And many people do this through fear of eternal torment in hell.  It is the Holy Spirt Who reveals that to them; the secular belief is that we just cease to exist.  That is their wishful thinking, that they don't have to give account for their actions and won't suffer for their rejection of God's eternal Son.  

True, a few have read Dante's Inferno.  But that is mythical.  

[Hawkeye]

Just now, Willa said:

The fact remains that it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement.  It is He Who turns us from sinfulness to Christ's loving provision of eternal bliss and forgiveness.  . And many people do this through fear of eternal torment in hell.  It is the Holy Spirt Who reveals that to them; the secular belief is that we just cease to exist.  That is their wishful thinking, that they don't have to give account for their actions and won't suffer for their rejection of God's eternal Son.  

True, a few have read Dante's Inferno.  But that is mythical.  

Who says anyone immediately ceases to exist and isn't accountable?? 

[Willa]

2 minutes ago, Willa said:

The fact remains that it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement.  It is He Who turns us from sinfulness to Christ's loving provision of eternal bliss and forgiveness.  . And many people do this through fear of eternal torment in hell.  It is the Holy Spirt Who reveals that to them; the secular belief is that we just cease to exist.  That is their wishful thinking, that they don't have to give account for their actions and won't suffer for their rejection of God's eternal Son.  

True, a few have read Dante's Inferno.  But that is mythical.  

Secular=unbelievers usually believe that they will not be held accountable.  

The point is that it is the Holy Spirit Who reveals to people that they will suffer eternally for rejecting the Christ and for their sin.  They don't need to be taught that.   

[Guest Teditis]

To me, the Bible makes it clear that the unbeliever's will indeed be held accountable and suffer (serious) punishment.

I'm just not sure that it's as clear that the torment on the individual will be eternal itself.

Scripture also talks about "destruction", a "second-death" and being "destroyed... both body and soul." These words

seem to carry the weight of some sort of end and finality to them.

So, for me, the issue isn't quite as clear cut as it seems for some.

[Hawkeye]

Death is final. Yes ya death cease to exist.

[Hawkeye]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

How do they prove his point? Compare John  3:16 with 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(Joh 3:36)

John 3:16 is simply saying what will not happen to those who believe.

No, I am looking for verses that clearly speak of the unbeliever being annihilated or in hell temporary.

http://www.rethinkinghell.com/explore/?doc

[Hawkeye]

Just now, Yowm said:

Whaaa? I can post links to the other side with those with equal  scholarship and historical backing. I already know there are those that take unbiblical positions. lol

No matter what scripture I give you, you reject it. And that's OK we're both still Christians and going to heaven.  this isn't a divisive salvation an issue. It changes nothing about evangelism.

[Hawkeye]

Death is final. You don't remain conscious after death...

[Hawkeye]

1 minute ago, Yowm said:

Yes, not a salvific topic, but personally though, it is to me an indicator or warning that someone is beginning to twist and turn clear Scripture. This is what theological liberals do in seminary, then churn out pastors who do that type of hermeneutics til you have a Church believing all sorts of unorthodox teachings until the church empties out.

I could say the same thing.