Guest Teditis Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 35 minutes ago, Yowm said: I just don't see John 3:16 and Rom 6:23 as any kind of propositional statements teaching that there is an annihilation or temporary state until one is no more...unlike statements in other parts of Scripture that talk about torment forever, e.g. Matthew 25:41, 46; Mark 9:42–48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5–10; Revelation 14:9– 11; Revelation 20:10, 14–15. I read some of these verses and don't share your idea that they definitively describe eternal torment to the individual. Some of the links were broken and I didn't look them up myself... anyway, they seem to lend as much credence to the idea that Hell is for torment/punishment, but they go no further than to say that. They don't specifically say that the individual will be tormented for eternity. For instance, where it says that the worm does not die; or the smoke rises forever... could just be referring to the nature of Hell the place as opposed to the tormenting of the individual that get destroyed there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Well again... no specifics for the average man/woman unbeliever. True there are specifics for the Devil and those that worship the Beast, but that just makes me wonder why that type of use of vocabulary isn't used for the average unbeliever. I still find myself unconvinced either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah_ Posted March 24, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 790 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 878 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2017 24 minutes ago, Teditis said: I read some of these verses and don't share your idea that they definitively describe eternal torment to the individual. Some of the links were broken and I didn't look them up myself... anyway, they seem to lend as much credence to the idea that Hell is for torment/punishment, but they go no further than to say that. They don't specifically say that the individual will be tormented for eternity. For instance, where it says that the worm does not die; or the smoke rises forever... could just be referring to the nature of Hell the place as opposed to the tormenting of the individual that get destroyed there. "The worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched" is one of Jesus' favourite descriptions of Hell It's a straight quote from Isaiah 66:24. The interesting thing is that in that passage, as I read it, Isaiah is NOT talking about eternal conscious torment. The people he is describing are not suffering; they are dead corpses rotting and being destroyed on the rubbish heap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, Yowm said: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11) I don't get it. How more specific do you need? At least it is wayyy more specific than I hear from the other camp. C'mon, it says if any man worship the Beast..., you have to keep it all in context and not cherry-pick sections of Scripture. That's just basic hermeneutics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 14 minutes ago, Yowm said: It was just a parallel example showing unbelieving men had the same fate as the devils. I could provide plenty of verses that have nothing to do with the mark. It's not even talking about "unbelieving men"... it's talking about a very specific subset of unbelievers that actively take part in worshiping the Beast. You're just not being honest when handling these Scriptures... how can one trust you with more? I'm not saying that annihilation is fact... maybe the torment does go on forever, IDK. But as I read the Scriptures, I don't come away with anything remotely, clear-cut about the specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted March 24, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 566 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1985 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 To clarify, Annhihilationsism is NOT the same thing as Conditonal Immortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinitin Posted March 24, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,366 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,150 Days Won: 9 Joined: 01/10/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hawkeye said: Death is final. You don't remain conscious after death... Jesus was and the dead people who rose from their grave when he did, Lazuras brother of mary, elijah and moses. And Lazarus and Abraham and that poor thirsty rich man. What about the souls of those beheaded crying out to God for Justice? What about ables cry to Good? What people gathered Jacob, david, and OT saints gathered unto their people? Then you have samuel or something raising up out of sheol if you take the words literally. Who are the captive souls Jesus went to preach to. Did the bible form you doctrin or did you come up with the doctrin and find evidence for it after words? Forgive me if im off base. I did pull this quote out of context. Edited March 24, 2017 by Reinitin Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted March 25, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 566 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1985 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 I still have not seen the ECT Crowd address my question. If Jesus took our punishment, which the Bible says he did- And if said punishment for rejecting him is that we burn forever- Why is he not still burning?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted March 25, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 566 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1985 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said: Jesus gave Himself as a perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins. He was sinless Himself so there is no way he could be "punished" in the way you are using the term. He took on the pain and the shame of our sins, suffering in our stead. That does not equal punishment. That is why He is not "still" burning, has never burned and will never burn. He is sinless. We are not. Whoever accepts Jesus as their sacrifice is cleansed of sin, in God's eyes for all eternity. A person who rejects Jesus remains in a sinful state and suffers punishment for eternity. But he was wounded for our transgressions, and he was crushed for our iniquities, and the punishment that made us whole was upon him (Isaiah 53:5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 25, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,990 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,688 Content Per Day: 11.83 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said: Jesus gave Himself as a perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins. He was sinless Himself so there is no way he could be "punished" in the way you are using the term. He took on the pain and the shame of our sins, suffering in our stead. That does not equal punishment. That is why He is not "still" burning, has never burned and will never burn. He is sinless. We are not. Whoever accepts Jesus as their sacrifice is cleansed of sin, in God's eyes for all eternity. A person who rejects Jesus remains in a sinful state and suffers punishment for eternity. Yes, that is correct. Jesus was sinless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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