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Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)


Hawkeye

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17 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

I have to admit I have never heard or read this view before, but the more I read what you are saying and the more research into God's word I will say you are making a great case and you well have gotten me to change my view on this topic. 

You do an outstanding job of articulating your views and it shows this is a well thought out and researched view.

Thank you for your post

I'm glad my posts could be of help. I would urge you to always be careful when going against tradition, but ultimately being honest and true to scripture should overrule tradition.

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15 hours ago, Yowm said:

If you are referring to Luftwaffe, anyone can support their view with Scripture by allegorizing/spiritualizing it. (I'm not good at nailing jello to a wall).

It is much tougher to defends ones' position when they take a more literal view of the text.

Our reading of scripture should be informed by the genre and figures of speech should not be taken at face value. Apocalyptic symbolism should not be taken at face value, and pointing that out is not an instance of allegorising/spiritualising.

How does one show that a figure of speech is at play? By showing where the same images and phrasing is being used elsewhere and where the bible itself attaches a different meaning. This I have done, so I believe I have satisfied the requirements of being true to scripture and sound exegesis.

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1 minute ago, LuftWaffle said:

Our reading of scripture should be informed by the genre and figures of speech should not be taken at face value. Apocalyptic symbolism should not be taken at face value, and pointing that out is not an instance of allegorising/spiritualising.

How does one show that a figure of speech is at play? By showing where the same images and phrasing is being used elsewhere and where the bible itself attaches a different meaning. This I have done, so I believe I have satisfied the requirements of being true to scripture and sound exegesis.

Hey Luft. Check your pm's LOL

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12 hours ago, Yowm said:

What Scriptures have been used to support the conditional/annhilational stance?

As I have pointed out a number of times, Conditional Immortality or Evangelical Conditionalism holds that eternal life is only given to the saved. The unsaved will perish/die/be destroyed.

What scriptures support this notion? Here are some that you have chosen to ignore earlier:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(Joh 3:16)

Do you believe what it says in the above verse, that those who believe will live forever and those who don't will perish? Or do you instead believe that everybody lives forever, some in bliss and some in misery, and that those in misery won't in fact perish at all?

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
(Mat 7:13-14)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 6:23)

 

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12 hours ago, Yowm said:

Looking back at his posts, he would use some rather questionable texts from the old testament which did not speak directly to annhilation but had to be inferred.

You are pretending that I am arguing for cessation of existence, but I have been very clear from the start that my position that the unsaved will die/perish/be destroyed. Pretending that I have made a different argument than that and going after that instead of what I actually argued is a strawman fallacy.

Quote

We have further progressive revelation in the NT which shines a clearer light on eternal torment of hell. It is poor exegesis to try and prove against what is clearly revealed in the NT by using questionable verses from the OT.

Jesus' audience and Paul's audience didn't have the luxury of theological notions such as "progressive revelation", but instead knew the old testament very well. There is no reason to think that they wouldn't have taken a wooden literal view of terms such as smoke rising and eternal fire. Terms they were very familiar with. Likewise there is also no reason to think that they would have understand death/desctruction juxtaposed against eternal life as meaning any other than what they were familiar with.

I'm happy to access if I have been guilty of bad exegesis, but merely asserting "you're wrong, because bad exegesis because progressive revelation" isn't an argument.

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13 hours ago, Willa said:

The fact remains that it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement.  It is He Who turns us from sinfulness to Christ's loving provision of eternal bliss and forgiveness.  . And many people do this through fear of eternal torment in hell.  It is the Holy Spirt Who reveals that to them; the secular belief is that we just cease to exist.  That is their wishful thinking, that they don't have to give account for their actions and won't suffer for their rejection of God's eternal Son.  

True, a few have read Dante's Inferno.  But that is mythical.  

You have made a number of points above which I think merits some consideration. I think the Holy Spirit has often used people's missteps for good. God used Joseph's brothers' wickedness for good to find a way to save Israel for instance. As such I don't think that just because good has come from the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, this automatically means that is true and that it is from the Holy Spirit.

I don't think it's fair to take what secularists believe and apply it to this discussion. Firstly I believe that all people will be held accountable and be judged and those who lose their lives will ultimately lose the greatest thing that mankind could ever be given, which is the opportunity to everlasting life in the new heaven and the new earth in the glory and kingdom of our God. And I think the thought that the price for that gift was freely given, because Jesus already died so they didn't have to, will indeed be tragic.

This is significantly far removed from what atheists believe that this life is it, the best there is.

Edited by LuftWaffle
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10 hours ago, Yowm said:

I just don't  see John 3:16 and Rom 6:23 as any kind of propositional statements teaching that there is an annihilation or temporary state until one is no more...unlike statements in other parts of Scripture that talk about torment forever, e.g.

Again I have made it clear that I believe the punishment is eternal because the unsaved will lose their lives forever. Moreover I've made it abundantly clear that my position is that the unsaved will die. Whether or not bits remain or nothing remains is irrelevant to me. 

The verses you've cited have been addressed before.

 

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10 hours ago, Yowm said:

This is what theological liberals do in seminary, then churn out pastors who do that type of hermeneutics til you have a Church believing all sorts of unorthodox teachings until the church empties out.

Lets put your theory to the test. A fellow conditionalist named Ronnie Demler has compiled a list of scriptural teachings and what esteemed traditionalist, some to whom you might look up have taught. Let's see if you're correct in that conditionalists are the one who twist scripture or if it may in fact be those on your side.

What the bible has to say about the death of the damned:

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:13: For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the
body, you will live.

John 6:50: This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

John 11:25–26: Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet
shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

What traditionalists say:

Saint Anselm: O worms, O worms, why do you gnaw me so cruelly? Pity me, pity me; pity poor me, that suffer so
many and such awful other torments! Ah, poor me, poor me! And I want to die; but, dying and dying, still I cannot
die.

Robert Murray M'Cheyne: Wicked men shall be cast away by themselves.—It is said, they shall wish to die, and
shall not be able. They shall seek death, and death shall flee from them.

Proceedings of the Church Missionary Society for Africa and the East: Some say, “Suppose me go to Hell, me soon
die there—big fire soon kill me; then me no feel.” But God says you no die in Hell. Suppose you put stone in the fire,
he can't be burnt ! No—fire can't burn him—he always live there! God says the wicked have hearts of stone, and
fire will no melt them.

John Wesley: Neither the righteous nor the wicked were to die any more: their souls and bodies were no more to
be separated.

Hyman Appelman: You can take poison; you can blow your brains out; you can hang yourself and believe you have
left your difficulties behind. But there is no poison in Hell. There are no guns in Hell. There is no death in Hell.

John MacDuff: [If we could] look into the lake of fire, and have a sight of the wretched beings who are there
writhing in deathless agonies--we would then thank God for the most miserable condition on earth, if it were only
sweetened with the hope of escaping that place of torment!

John Willison: Pray earnestly, that all your sins may die before you die; for if they die not before you, but outlive
the dying body, they will live eternally to sting and torment the never-dying soul.

John Gill: …the soul in torment shall never die, or lose any of its powers and faculties; and particularly, not its
gnawing, torturing conscience.

Jerry Vines: To go to into hell knowing you will never return is the tragedy of all tragedies. “Let some air in.” No air
is in hell. “I need a drink of water.” No water is in hell. “Turn on some light.” No light is in hell. “Let me die.” No
death occurs in hell.

 

What do you say YOWM? Do you believe that the unsaved will die, or do you believe that they'll live forever in torment?

Edited by LuftWaffle
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Who lives forever according to the bible?

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 2:17: The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (NASB)

John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

What traditionalists say:

John Rice: But the Bible carefully teaches that sinners must live on in torment forever beyond the judgment.
J.I. Packer: In the New Testament, however, hell is a destiny: it is humanity’s future life as all who oppose God will experience it.

John McKinley: Evildoers will continue to have purpose and value as God’s image bearers who acknowledge Jesus as Lord. They continue to live with created dignity by the way God holds them accountable for their evil actions.

Pope John Paul II: The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God.

John Piper: You are not mere matter and energy. You are an embodied soul who will live forever in heaven or in hell, created in the image of God…
---
Jesus had a lively, daily awareness of heaven and hell. These awesome realities were always relevant for the way he lived and taught. He was radically reasonable about these things. If we will live forever in bliss or torment, then securing the one and escaping the other is more important than most of what we think about.
John MacArthur: The message of the Bible is that death does not end the existence of anyone, that every human being who has ever lived will live forever...either in hell or in heaven, either in eternal death or eternal life . . . Not merely as a disembodied spirit, but every person will live forever in bodily form.

C.S. Lewis: Christianity asserts that every individual human being is going to live forever, and this must be either true or false.

Robert Peterson: Believers will enjoy the new heavens and the new earth, whereas the final destination of the unrepentant will be “the lake that burns with fire and brimstone” Evidently God does not view unbelievers' being eternally alive in the lake of fire as incompatible with His being “all in all.”
---
Moreover the picture of the righteous and unrighteous living forever in bliss and misery, respectively, does not fit either universalism or annihilationism.

George Whitefield: I have in effect denied the Lord that bought me, and therefore justly am I now denied by him.
But must I live for ever tormented in these flames?

Charles Spurgeon: Man was condemned to live forever in Hell.
---
Thou art a fallen creature, having only capacities to live here in sin, to live forever in torment.

Menno Simmons: Therefore, consider seriously the heartrending misery and wretchedness of their poor souls which must live forever, either in heaven or in hell.

Mark Driscoll: God is an eternal God; a sin against him is an eternal act that requires an eternal consequence. And we are going to live eternally into the future—the question is where.

You are going to live forever, and it will be unceasing joy or unceasing anguish.

John Walvoord: It also seems very clear, according to Revelation 20:10 as well as other passages, that those thrown into the lake of fire are not annihilated. The beast and the false prophet are still alive and still tormented a thousand years after they are cast.

Billy Graham: [The soul] will never die, but will live forever in either Heaven or Hell.

 

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What the bible says about the destruction of the damned:

Matthew 7:13: Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Matthew 10:28: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Peter 2:12: But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9: They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

What traditionalists say:

John Walvoord: Those being resurrected from Hades and the grave will receive a body that can never be destroyed, but unlike the body of the righteous, it is a body that is still wicked, still in rebellion against God, and still deserving God's judgment.

J. Warner Wallace: They will not be destroyed, but instead, will be left in a conscious state to experience the torment and anguish of their punishment forever.

Greg Koukl: Men are not destroyed, they are in torment.

Robert Peterson: Hell is where “the fire is not quenched.” This is a picture of everlasting suffering, not of destruction.

J.I. Packer: The fire of hell in the Bible is a picture not of destruction but of ongoing pain.

J.P. Moreland: If God is the source and preserver of values, and if persons have the high degree of intrinsic value Christianity claims they have, then God is the preserver of persons. He would be wrong to destroy something of
such value just because it has chosen a life it was not intended to live.

Frank Turek and Norman Geisler: Hell is real. In fact, Jesus spoke more of hell then he did of heaven. God will not annihilate unbelievers because he will not destroy creatures made in his own image. That would be an attack on himself.

Robert Thomas: Jesus described the fire as unquenchable as did John the Baptist. Jesus said it will be a fire that acts like salt, preserving rather than destroying.

Lactantius: Because [the wicked] have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire.

Erwin Lutzer: Hell, then, is the raw soul joined to an indestructible body.

Christopher Morgan: Annihilationism is the belief that those who die apart from saving faith in Jesus Christ will be ultimately destroyed.

Albert Mohler: The Socinians . . . questioned the eternality of punishment in hell, teaching instead that the wicked would be destroyed in hell—a view that has come to be known as annihilationism.

Wenham leaned toward the annihilationist view that unbelievers might be destroyed rather than endlessly tortured in hell.

J.I. Packer: Furthermore, the theory of annihilationism, in which unbelievers are not tortured but destroyed in hell, must be read into the Bible.

Vernon McGee: [Hell is] not annihilation. Some of our cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, they teach that the righteous will live forever but the wicked are just going to be destroyed and that ends it as far as they’re concerned.

Randy Alcorn: Another view [of annihilationism] states that unbelievers are destroyed not at death, but sometime later.

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