Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[BobRyan]

On 7/12/2016 at 5:48 AM, Hawkeye said:

So I wanted to open up for public discussion (albeit, I have had this discussion in chat with various people) rethinking hell.

From my understanding, there are two views of hell. The Traditionalist and the Conditional view.The traditional view of hell is the one we are most familiar with. Man dies, unsaved man goes to hell (lake of fire and brimstone), and he burns forever. Where the Christian goes on to heaven and lives forever.  The Conditional view argues that eternal life/immortal soul is conditional on salvation. (This is also called Annihilation View) and, depending on your level of conditionalism (full or partial), said man is consumed immediately, or he burns for awhile and then is consumed.

In the interest of making this an open discussion/dialogue, I will say that according to my understanding of scripture, there are verses that could support either view. Because of this, it's not a "core" salvational, or even a divisive issue. I do find it fascinating, and for a long time I fought against it. 

Here are some key verses often used to defend CI (Conditional Immortality) You see the parallels between perishing (which means, in essence) ceasing to exist. And eternal life as a gift for believers alone.

John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his only son and that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have everlasting life.

Romans 6:23- For the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life.

Death has always meant death, cessation of life.

So we also see, in the scripture that various means of non-Christians leads to death. Some examples:

They are Destroyed, wiped out all remembrance of them (Isaiah 26.14)

Like Sodom and Gomorrah: turned to ashes, and condemned to extinction (2 Peter 2.6)

I do have lots more examples but this post is getting long. So I look forward to some intelligent discussion. To fully understand it, it goes along with what happens right after death, and the final Great White Throne Judgement. They all 3 go hand-in-hand typically. 

If you have Amazon Prime and are willing to watch a documentary about it, watch "Hell & Mr. Fudge".

There is also a widely accepted "masterpiece" book on the topic by Edward Fudge. The title is "The Fire That Consumes" and is a schoalary read, not an overnight read by any means - but is eye-opening.

 

Agreed. That movie "Hell and Mr. Fudge" is a great one. And you are right about hell at least in some respects.

Matthew 10:28 says not to fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul - rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell.

Revelation 20 tells us that the lake of fire event takes place after the 1000 year millennium - when the wicked are raised, judged and cast into that fiery hell.

So then 1 Thess 4 tells us that mankind is dormant in death even though the spirit of all mankind goes to God at death - it is in a dormant state.

1 Thess 4

¹³ But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. ¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words. 

The comfort Paul does not give here is "your loved one - the dead in Christ, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus... are with the Lord now they do not wait until the 2nd coming and resurrection to be with the Lord".

And in Ezekiel 18:4 "The SOUL that sins will die" - but there is a literal hell -- John calls it the "lake of fire" and it will be real fire and brimstone - real torment. But at a certain point we have the Matthew 10:28 fact that BOTH body AND soul will be destroyed in it.

 

 

[Hawkeye]

2 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Agreed. That movie "Hell and Mr. Fudge" is a great one. And you are right about hell at least in some respects.

Matthew 10:28 says not to fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul - rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell.

Revelation 20 tells us that the lake of fire event takes place after the 1000 year millennium - when the wicked are raised, judged and cast into that fiery hell.

So then 1 Thess 4 tells us that mankind is dormant in death even though the spirit of all mankind goes to God at death - it is in a dormant state.

1 Thess 4

¹³ But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. ¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words. 

The comfort Paul does not give here is "your loved one - the dead in Christ, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus... are with the Lord now they do not wait until the 2nd coming and resurrection to be with the Lord".

And in Ezekiel 18:4 "The SOUL that sins will die" - but there is a literal hell -- John calls it the "lake of fire" and it will be real fire and brimstone - real torment. But at a certain point we have the Matthew 10:28 fact that BOTH body AND soul will be destroyed in it.

 

 

Welcome to the CI crew

[Jeff2]

6 hours ago, Yowm said:

Thank you. The reason I side with Sola Scriptura.

And that is why Sola Scriptura is the grown tree of error. 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, folks.

I've read through portions of this topic ... and find myself cringing from the lack of understanding of basic terminology.

We have such a limited understanding of the vocabulary we use, that we consistently make errors in the usage of this vocabulary.

Let's go back to Genesis and get things right:

First, a transliteration and translation of the Hebrew:

B-reeshiyt 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah:
Souvenir Torah from Chagiym Yerushalayim

7 Vayiytser = 7 And-he-formed
YHWH = the-LORD (God's Name)
Elohiym = God
et = (the following is the direct object)
haa'aadaam = the-red-man
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-ground
vayipach = and-he-puffed
b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-living-(things)
vayhiy = and-he-became
haa'aadaam = the-red-man
l-nefesh = to/into-an-air-breather
chayaah: = living:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,  ***the LORD God formed "the MAN," not "the BODY of the man!"
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ***He PUFFED into his nostrils the PUFF of living things; that is, life,
and man became a living soul. *** and "the MAN" became "a living AIR-BREATHER!"
KJV

Here's Strong's on the word used for "soul":

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

That's what a "soul" is; it's an AIR-BREATHER!

***

A "spirit" is even easier! Here's the Strong's entry:

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath,  cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Here's some of the less confused passages:

Genesis 8:1-3
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
KJV

Exodus 10:13
13 And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts.
KJV

Exodus 10:19
19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt.
KJV

Exodus 15:1-10
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
KJV

Both words are used of animals as well as men:

Genesis 1:20-25
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 3:21
21 Who knoweth the spirit (Hebrew: ruwach) of man that goeth upward, and the spirit (Hebrew: ruwach) of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
KJV

So, my point is this: Both animals and mankind are said to BE "air-breathers" and both are said to HAVE "winds/breaths." There never seems to be a problem with the word "body," but just to be thorough,...

OT:1472 geviyaah (ghev-ee-yaw'); prolonged for OT:1465; a body, whether alive or dead:
KJV - (dead) body, carcase, corpse.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Genesis 47:18-19
18 When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies (Hebrew: geviyaah), and our lands:
19 Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.
KJV

Judges 14:8-9
8 And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase (Hebrew: geviyaah) of the lion.
9 And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase (Hebrew: geviyaah) of the lion.
KJV

Greek had their own set of words, "sooma" = "body"; "pneuma" = "wind/breath"; "psuchee" = "an air-breather," but they were compatible and translations of the Hebrew words above. A case in point is found in 1 Corinthians 15:45:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma).
KJV

Now, I would suggest that anyone who has posted in this topic go back and re-read what you posted in light of this information. You might just laugh at the absurdity of what you wrote when using these definitions.

[BobRyan]

14 hours ago, Jeff2 said:

And that is why Sola Scriptura is the grown tree of error. 

Is Acts 17:11 and Isaiah 8:20 "error" in your view?

[BobRyan]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, folks.

 

Shabbat Shalom!

Quote

 

Greek had their own set of words, "sooma" = "body"; "pneuma" = "wind/breath"; "psuchee" = "an air-breather," but they were compatible and translations of the Hebrew words above. A case in point is found in 1 Corinthians 15:45:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma).
KJV

Now, I would suggest that anyone who has posted in this topic go back and re-read what you posted in light of this information. You might just laugh at the absurdity of what you wrote when using these definitions.

 

How do you read MAtthew 10:28?

Edited April 23, 2017 by BobRyan

[Jeff2]

12 hours ago, Yowm said:

By your own words the Fathers have seeds of many errors.

What seeds of error does God's Written Word have?

None! But just think of it! Those that were so close to the beginning could be influenced by a hundred years of Gnosticism, and Legalism, imagine how we, so far away, with two thousand years of influence affecting our thinking, the Church, and our culture so different and our way of using Scripture so different; how could it be possible that we would be more correct that those who lived for truth based upon Scripture, and actually suffered and died for the faith?

Statistical odds are vastly against us being better interpreters of the Word. I would be ashamed of even suggesting our superiority through such a gross over-estimation of our capabilities.   

[Hawkeye]

I haven't read this thread in awhile, seems we are getting away from the original intent of the OP.

[BobRyan]

19 hours ago, Jeff2 said:

None! But just think of it! Those that were so close to the beginning could be influenced by a hundred years of Gnosticism, and Legalism, imagine how we, so far away, with two thousand years of influence affecting our thinking, the Church, and our culture so different and our way of using Scripture so different; how could it be possible that we would be more correct that those who lived for truth based upon Scripture, and actually suffered and died for the faith?

Statistical odds are vastly against us being better interpreters of the Word. I would be ashamed of even suggesting our superiority through such a gross over-estimation of our capabilities.   

Acts 20 - Paul says "I know that after my departure wolves will come in..

²⁹ I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; ³⁰ and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. ³¹ Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

 

1 Tim 1 - the whole reason Paul leaves Timothy at Ephesus is to squash the heresy already arising in the church at that location -

³ As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, ⁴ nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. ⁵ But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ⁶ For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, ⁷ wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

 

So strong was the spirit of apostasy that by the late first century they were tossing people out of church who dared to continue to listen to the Apostle John.

3 John 1

⁹ I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. ¹⁰ For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

 

If we learned anything from the dark ages - it was that simply relying on someone else's "say so" is not good enough.

Paul makes this flaming declaration "even if WE (apostles) OR an ANGEL from HEAVEN should preach to you any other Gospel - let him be ACCURSED!" Gal 1:6-9

 Isaiah 8:20 "To the Law and to the Testimony - if they speak not according to THIS Word - there is no light in them"

Edited April 24, 2017 by BobRyan

[Jeff2]

34 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Acts 20 - Paul says "I know that after my departure wolves will come in..

Paul in 2017... the wolves have already won.