Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, BobRyan said:

Shabbat Shalom!

How do you read Matthew 10:28?

Shalom, BobRyan.

Kata Maththaion 10:28
28 Kai mee fobeisthe apo toon apoktenontoon to sooma, teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai fobeisthe de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee.
UBS Greek New Testament

28 Kai = 28 And/Also
mee = not
fobeisthe = you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere
apo = away-from
toon = those
apoktenontoon = killing/destroying
to = the
sooma = body
teen = the
de = but/however
psucheen = air-breather
mee = not
dunamenoon = being-able
apokteinai = to-kill/destroy
fobeisthe = you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere
de = but/however
mallon = rather/more
ton = the-one
dunamenon = being-able
kai = and/also
psucheen = an-air-breather
kai = and/also
sooma = a-body
apolesai = to-kill/destroy
en = in
ge-ennee = [the]-Valley-of-Hinnom. 

28 And/Also not you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere away-from those killing/destroying the body but/however the air-breather not being-able to-kill/destroy 

but/however you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere rather/more the-one being-able and/also an-air-breather and/also a-body to-kill/destroy in [the]-Valley-of-Hinnom.

One thing one must realize is that nowhere in this statement does it say that a SINGLE PERSON is both a body and an air-breather. However, a SINGLE PERSON IS EITHER a body OR an air-breather (a person who is alive). This speaks to the RESURRECTION because it is AFTER that resurrection that one stands before the Messiah to be judged in the Valley of Hinnom outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), erroneously translated "hell."

What makes a person able to be resurrected long after decay has destroyed the body is God's MEMORY of that person! Resurrection is actually an act of CREATION! And, even when one is to become a glorified body, that transformation happens AT the resurrection!

Paul finishes his resurrection chapter like this:

1 Corinthians 15:35-54
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body (Greek: soomata psuchikon), and there is a spiritual body (Greek: soomata pneumatikon). [Note: An "oo" represents an omega, while an "o" represents an omicron.]
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: .
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

Therefore, we should be revering/fearing the One who can RAISE to life as easily as He can TAKE a life! That's what Matthew 10:28 is saying.

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BobRyan.

Kata Maththaion 10:28
28 Kai mee fobeisthe apo toon apoktenontoon to sooma, teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai fobeisthe de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee.
UBS Greek New Testament

One thing one must realize is that nowhere in this statement does it say that a SINGLE PERSON is both a body and an air-breather. However, a SINGLE PERSON IS EITHER a body OR an air-breather (a person who is alive). This speaks to the RESURRECTION because it is AFTER that resurrection that one stands before the Messiah to be judged in the Valley of Hinnom outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), erroneously translated "hell."

What makes a person able to be resurrected long after decay has destroyed the body is God's MEMORY of that person! Resurrection is actually an act of CREATION! And, even when one is to become a glorified body, that transformation happens AT the resurrection!..

Therefore, we should be revering/fearing the One who can RAISE to life as easily as He can TAKE a life! That's what Matthew 10:28 is saying.

1. a lot of people here would argue that we have bodies and we breathe air.

2. I don't understand what you mean when you say the text is talking about killing your body but not killing your ability to breathe air. If we really are talking about the ability to breathe air - then that ends the moment your body is killed. So in that model there is no such thing as "fear those who kill the body but cannot kill your ability to breathe air".

3. 1 Cor 15 mentions nothing about "God's memory" -- rather Jesus said "Father into Thy hands I commend My spirit ... and so also does Stephen when he is being stoned to death".

 

I believe the spirit/soul of the person goes dormant at death. -- someone has said that God keeps the info to make copies of you ... but that is not what we see with "into Thy hands I commit my spirit". Rather in that case it is the person themselves in the form of their spirit - that goes to God - in a dormant state "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM".   

Thus it is a "transfer" that is taking place - and not a memorex copy/duplication. The same person is being "transferred" from the decaying-tent of 2Cor 5:1-7 to the eternal heavenly dwelling/tent of 2Cor 5. The mortal body and then transferred to the immortal one. In 1 Cor 15 the physical body is something we "have" not something we "are" - just as in 2Cor 5.

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by BobRyan

[Retrobyter]

On 4/23/2017 at 1:32 AM, Hawkeye said:

I haven't read this thread in awhile, seems we are getting away from the original intent of the OP.

Shalom, Hawkeye.

My intent was to show that a proper interpretation of "soul" and "spirit" will correct the thinking of many on this thread.

For instance, "the souls of the martyrs who were beheaded" were ALREADY resurrected! They were "SOULS" - "AIR-BREATHERS!" They weren't in "heaven" under the altar, they were before the PHYSICAL altar of the rebuilt Temple. Since people used this passage as a proof text, they must re-think their positions based on this information.

There is no "Heaven" as people often think of it. There IS, however, a New Jerusalem that will land upon the New Earth with its New Sky. In light of this information, some should re-think their positions.

Hawkeye, you said,

Quote

From my understanding, there are two views of hell. The Traditionalist and the Conditional view. The traditional view of hell is the one we are most familiar with. Man dies, unsaved man goes to hell (lake of fire and brimstone), and he burns forever. Where the Christian goes on to heaven and lives forever.  The Conditional view argues that eternal life/immortal soul is conditional on salvation. (This is also called Annihilation View) and, depending on your level of conditionalism (full or partial), said man is consumed immediately, or he burns for awhile and then is consumed.

There are several things that are wrong with these two views versus the way that Scripture presents these topics.

First, "hell" is the wrong word. Three Greek words were translated as "hell" and NONE of them is the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" or the "Lake of Burning Sulfur."

These three Greek words are "hadees" or "hades" which means the "unseen," used as we would use the words "the unknown"; "ge-enna" or "gehenna," the "Valley of Hinnom" outside Jerusalem where the trash was burned and where the judgment seat of the kings were set up to judge evildoers and sentence them to death; and "tartaro-oo," a verb meaning to "incarcerate in Tartaros," the lowest prison in the Greek-mythological place of "Hades."

Second, "heaven" is the wrong word. There are five words that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," and they were "epouranios," "mesouraneema," "ouranothen," "ouranios," and "ouranos," whose plural is "ouranoi." NONE of these words have to do with our final destination - our home - the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem that will land there. "Ouranos" is the foundation word for the other four:

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

ep-ouran-ios = above-the-sky-of-or-related-to (adjective)
mes-ouran-eema = middle-of-the-sky-position (noun)
ouran-ios = the-sky-of-or-related-to (adjective)
ourano-then = the-sky-from (focusing on the source)

NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky:
KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

NT:3321 mesouraneema (mes-oo-ran'-ay-mah); from a presumed compound of NT:3319 and NT:3772; mid-sky:
KJV - midst of heaven.

NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:
KJV - heavenly.

NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky:
KJV - from heaven.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

However, all the descriptions of "heaven" - the streets of gold, the pearly gates, the foundations made from gemstones, the foursquare city of gold, the river of the water of life, the tree of life - come from the descriptions of the New Jerusalem, not "heaven," in Revelation 21 and 22.

Third, there's only one way that there is an "immortal soul," an "immortal air-breather," and that's through the RESURRECTION. However, Paul tells us in the Resurrection Chapter, 1 Cor. 15, that there's more than one general resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:  (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then (2) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

There will be general resurrections (1) at Christ's coming (at the beginning of the Millennium) and (2) at the end of the age (at the end of the Millennium). Also, this passage doesn't talk about eternal torment. The issue here is the Son "subduing all of His enemies," putting them "under His feet."

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (Greek: tas psuchas = "the air-breathers") of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

On the other hand, nowhere in this passage of Revelation 20 does it say that the dead, small and great, who are not found written in the book of life and were cast into the Lake of Fire were "to be tormented day and night for ever and ever," like the devil's fate.

But, we DO have Yeshua`s words: 

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

There are other, more minor issues in what you said above, but they can be investigated another day.

[Hawkeye]

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Hawkeye.

My intent was to show that a proper interpretation of "soul" and "spirit" will correct the thinking of many on this thread.

For instance, "the souls of the martyrs who were beheaded" were ALREADY resurrected! They were "SOULS" - "AIR-BREATHERS!" They weren't in "heaven" under the altar, they were before the PHYSICAL altar of the rebuilt Temple. Since people used this passage as a proof text, they must re-think their positions based on this information.

There is no "Heaven" as people often think of it. There IS, however, a New Jerusalem that will land upon the New Earth with its New Sky. In light of this information, some should re-think their positions.

Hawkeye, you said,

There are several things that are wrong with these two views versus the way that Scripture presents these topics.

First, "hell" is the wrong word. Three Greek words were translated as "hell" and NONE of them is the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" or the "Lake of Burning Sulfur."

These three Greek words are "hadees" or "hades" which means the "unseen," used as we would use the words "the unknown"; "ge-enna" or "gehenna," the "Valley of Hinnom" outside Jerusalem where the trash was burned and where the judgment seat of the kings were set up to judge evildoers and sentence them to death; and "tartaro-oo," a verb meaning to "incarcerate in Tartaros," the lowest prison in the Greek-mythological place of "Hades."

Second, "heaven" is the wrong word. There are five words that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," and they were "epouranios," "mesouraneema," "ouranothen," "ouranios," and "ouranos," whose plural is "ouranoi." NONE of these words have to do with our final destination - our home - the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem that will land there. "Ouranos" is the foundation word for the other four:

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

ep-ouran-ios = above-the-sky-of-or-related-to (adjective)
mes-ouran-eema = middle-of-the-sky-position (noun)
ouran-ios = the-sky-of-or-related-to (adjective)
ourano-then = the-sky-from (focusing on the source)

NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky:
KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

NT:3321 mesouraneema (mes-oo-ran'-ay-mah); from a presumed compound of NT:3319 and NT:3772; mid-sky:
KJV - midst of heaven.

NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:
KJV - heavenly.

NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky:
KJV - from heaven.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

However, all the descriptions of "heaven" - the streets of gold, the pearly gates, the foundations made from gemstones, the foursquare city of gold, the river of the water of life, the tree of life - come from the descriptions of the New Jerusalem, not "heaven," in Revelation 21 and 22.

Third, there's only one way that there is an "immortal soul," an "immortal air-breather," and that's through the RESURRECTION. However, Paul tells us in the Resurrection Chapter, 1 Cor. 15, that there's more than one general resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:  (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then (2) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

There will be general resurrections (1) at Christ's coming (at the beginning of the Millennium) and (2) at the end of the age (at the end of the Millennium). Also, this passage doesn't talk about eternal torment. The issue here is the Son "subduing all of His enemies," putting them "under His feet."

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (Greek: tas psuchas = "the air-breathers") of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

On the other hand, nowhere in this passage of Revelation 20 does it say that the dead, small and great, who are not found written in the book of life and were cast into the Lake of Fire were "to be tormented day and night for ever and ever," like the devil's fate.

But, we DO have Yeshua`s words: 

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

There are other, more minor issues in what you said above, but they can be investigated another day.

It is hard to tell from your posts, are you Pro or Anti Conditional immortality?

[Retrobyter]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

It is hard to tell from your posts, are you Pro or Anti Conditional immortality?

Shalom, Hawkeye.

I suppose, since there IS such a thing as "eternal punishment," that I would have to be considered "Anti-Conditional." Whether all are escalated to that point or not, I'm not so sure. However, the death of God's Son on the cross is so precious, that ANY refusal of such a priceless, free gift by one who is a potential recipient of that payment for sin SHOULD be considered a slap in God's face and worthy of such punishment!

[xyluz]

@Hawkeye read the thread... (mostly)... I am not made a decision.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

There's a difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing.

You can have a punishment that is eternal in its consequences;

However it is another thing to experience eternal punishing.

Conditionalism vs Traditionalism is simply Jewish Apostles vs Greek philosopher's

Shalom, inchrist.

Perhaps, but if so, then I would have to say that the wrong word was used in translation because the word for "punishment" is ...

NT:2851 kolasis (kol'-as-is); from NT:2849; penal infliction:
KJV - punishment, torment.

NT:2849 kolazoo (kol-ad'-zo); from kolos (dwarf); properly, to curtail, i.e. (figuratively) to chastise (or reverse for infliction):
KJV - punish.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, the words mean "eternal CHASTISEMENT" or "eternal INFLICTION," not just the consequences of some past event!

Think about this: Why would the Messiah have raised them from the dead just to drop them again?!

[BobRyan]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Hawkeye.

I suppose, since there IS such a thing as "eternal punishment," that I would have to be considered "Anti-Conditional." Whether all are escalated to that point or not, I'm not so sure. However, the death of God's Son on the cross is so precious, that ANY refusal of such a priceless, free gift by one who is a potential recipient of that payment for sin SHOULD be considered a slap in God's face and worthy of such punishment!

Christ paid the debt of sin that we owe. If we each owe infinite torture for one single sin - then at most an infinite God could pay for 1 sin

[Retrobyter]

On 4/24/2017 at 8:44 PM, BobRyan said:

1. a lot of people here would argue that we have bodies and we breathe air.

2. I don't understand what you mean when you say the text is talking about killing your body but not killing your ability to breathe air. If we really are talking about the ability to breathe air - then that ends the moment your body is killed. So in that model there is no such thing as "fear those who kill the body but cannot kill your ability to breathe air".

3. 1 Cor 15 mentions nothing about "God's memory" -- rather Jesus said "Father into Thy hands I commend My spirit ... and so also does Stephen when he is being stoned to death".

Shalom, BobRyan.

1. They may argue that we HAVE bodies, but that's not what Genesis 2:7 said. It said that Adam WAS the body that was formed and given the breath (puff) of life. They are RIGHT that "we breathe air," but that implies that "we" ARE the bodies capable of breathing air.

2. No, you misunderstood what I was saying about the passage. It's not the "ability to breathe air" that's killed; it's the "resurrection of the air-breather" - the "air-breathing body" - that is killed, or rather, destroyed.

Read it again with the appropriate substitutions:

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy the [future resurrected] air-breather: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both [future resurrected] air-breather and body in gei-Hinnom.
KJV

Of course, the words "future resurrected" are added for clarity, but you can read it without those words and still see the point because the judgment at gei-Hinnom - the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem - is a future chain of events when the Messiah becomes Israel's King!

On 4/24/2017 at 8:44 PM, BobRyan said:

I believe the spirit/soul of the person goes dormant at death. -- someone has said that God keeps the info to make copies of you ... but that is not what we see with "into Thy hands I commit my spirit". Rather in that case it is the person themselves in the form of their spirit - that goes to God - in a dormant state "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM".   

Thus it is a "transfer" that is taking place - and not a memorex copy/duplication. The same person is being "transferred" from the decaying-tent of 2Cor 5:1-7 to the eternal heavenly dwelling/tent of 2Cor 5. The mortal body and then transferred to the immortal one. In 1 Cor 15 the physical body is something we "have" not something we "are" - just as in 2Cor 5.

The air-breather DOES go "dormant" (which is the Latin "dormire," through the French dormir, for "to sleep") at death! It "goes to sleep!" It lies in a grave and begins to decay. The person "gives up the ghost" or "gives up the spirit" or "gives up the breath," and the individual CEASES to breathe! He or she will not breathe again until the Resurrection! Lazarus (Elezar) the person was "asleep" in the tomb with a stone rolled in front of the doorway. When Yeshua` had them roll the stone away and called out to him, "Elezar, tsee'!" ("Lazarus, come out!") Notice, too, that Yeshua` didn't say "I go that I may wake his BODY!"

God doesn't "keep info" to make copies of a person; He KNOWS all our members BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN FORMED! Why shouldn't He know them when it's time to "wake us up?"

Psalm 139:1-24
1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (smallest; microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (immature); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way (road; path) everlasting.
KJV

Sorry, but in 1 Corinthians 15, we do NOT HAVE a body; we ARE a body! Beginning with Paul's quotation of Genesis 2:7, we see...

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a-living air-breather"); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a-life-making wind/forceful-breath" in a body of "flesh and bones"; see Luke 24:39).
KJV

Then, we read...

1 Corinthians 15:46-49
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon, the adjective form of pneuma), but that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon, the adjective form of psuchee = air-breather); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon).
47 The first man is of the earth (Greek: ek gees = "out-of earth"), earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty/dirty/soil-like"): the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranos = "out-of [the]-sky").
48 As is the earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty/dirty/soil-like"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: choikoi = plural noun form: "dirty-ones"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: epouranios = of-or-from-above-the-sky), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: epouranioi = plural noun form: "of-or-from-above-the-sky-ones").
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Greek: teen eikona tou choikou = "the image/likeness of-the dusty/dirty/soil-like"), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Greek: teen eikona tou epouraniou = "the image/likeness of-the-one  of-or-from-above-the-sky").
KJV

It's not "the body of the first man is of the earth"; it's "the first man is of the earth." It's not "our bodies" but "WE have borne the image of the earthy!"

As far as 2 Corinthians 5:1-7 is concerned, Paul is not contrasting the body and the soul/spirit. He is artificially contrasting the outer man and the inner man! He's using a parable form in 2 Cor. 5:1-7 to show this contrast. Consider chapter 4:

2 Corinthians 4:5-18
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
KJV

 

[Retrobyter]

8 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Christ paid the debt of sin that we owe. If we each owe infinite torture for one single sin - then at most an infinite God could pay for 1 sin

Shalom, BobRyan.

That's nonsense. You obviously have never studied the concept of "infinity" in mathematics. Infinity is not limited at all. It's not like 1 x 8 = 8 x 1! Commutation of multiplication does not apply to infinity. Furthermore, infinity is more like 0 in the sense that it ABSORBS all other numbers. 0 x any number = 0. However, the inverse is not applicable. Any number / 0 is neither 0 nor some other number; it is called "undefined." This is because when one says, "5 / 0" he or she is actually saying "I'm not going to divide 5 by anything."

Some mathematical tricks are done by secretly attempting to say that "4 / 0 = 5 / 0," for instance. Usually, these tricks are performed by hiding the whole thing in algebra - the substitution of letters for the numbers - so that the false math is hidden in the letters.

To understand infinity a little better, remember that after 10,000,000 years have passed, infinite time still is left!

God can forgive an INFINITE amount of sins by the same INFINITE sacrifice for sin and still have an INFINITE amount of that sacrifice left for an INFINITE amount of people! Learn the MAGNITUDE of God's ability! He is an INFINITE GOD, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and eternal!