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Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)


Hawkeye

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:emot-heartbeat:

The

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

LORD

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29

Of Life And Liberty

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

And The Universe And Everything

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

The Almighty God And Our LORD, Jesus The Christ~!

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Revelation 5:12

~

Beloved, Because Most Just Will Not Believe

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

They'll Say "To Hell With It"

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

And So Into Hell

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

They'll Strut

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. Isaiah 5:13-16

But

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

There Is No

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:8-11

Reason For You To Follow

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21

Love, Your Brother Joe

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15 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

Conditionalism doesn't dismiss hell. (Gehenna) the FIRE ITSELF is eternal, meant for Satan & His Demons....

It seems this eternal punishment is simply separation/missing out on heaven....

:sherlock:

Beloved

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

Pretty Much

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46 (New International Version)

See?

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New International Version)

No?

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (New International Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

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15 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

The traditional view wants to say death doesn't mean death....
even though the definition of death is....
to cease to exist........

:emot-heartbeat:

Yeap~! With Christ

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

Death

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Is Defeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:55-58

:emot-heartbeat:

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22 hours ago, BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus said:

I understand that I am saved from the wrath of God and the penalty of sin, isn't that enough?

It's enough if you are not going to challenge Bible doctrine.  But it is not enough otherwise, and it is not even enough to clearly comprehend God plans and purposes.

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On 7/14/2016 at 10:03 AM, Hawkeye said:

The traditional view wants to say death doesn''t mean death, even though the definition of death is to cease to exist.

I have not been following this topic, forgive me if I have missed to point here from not doing so, but I just noted something as I was skimming something quoted.

What I am zeroing in on is something I see here a lot in discussions - that is the habit of making points through re-definition.

For example, a person will say "the Rapture is Jesus returning for the saints, before the tribulation". That may or may not be what happens, but it is not something that the Bible says of the Rapture, that is just defining a doctrine into existence through definition.

Here you have done the same thing:

"even though the definition of death is to cease to exist"

Now, I suppose the there might actually be a dictionary somewhere the says "the definition of death is to cease to exist", I have not checked. However, I would offer, that death does not mean "cease to exist". Even if that is the case in English, which I suspect it is not, that does not mean that is the case in the Bible, which is what you are interested in here. 

The first thing that came to my mind, was the first time I could think of the concept of death in the Bible, was God telling Adam, that on the day that he eats of the fruit, we would die. You know the story, Adam ate of the fruit, and then lived to be 900 something years old, as I recall, so clearly, death did not mean 'cease to exist' in that case.

I think, that "ceasing to exist", is not at all a definition of death, it is one of several possible consequences to death. When I was an atheist, I assumed that I would cease to exist, but I understood, that cessation of life, was a consequence, that was coincidental to death, but that was a result, not the definition. Death in my world view, was the dividing line that separated life, from cessation, but cessation of life, was no more a part of death than life was. Life was on one side of a line, cessation of life on the other, the death was a line between the two, not equalt to cessation.

Later, as a Christian, I came to understand that there was an eternity, that awaited people AFTER death, I became aware that I had a spirit, a part of me that exists in a body now, and can be in a body later, but it is NOT tied to the body, it is just related to a body, both in life, and can be afterward.

I like how it has been said:

"You don't have a soul. You are a soul; you have a body."

In any case, death is not defined as ceasing it exist, it is one possible consequence of death. Redefined terms, is a poor way to defend position.

As I wrote to another poster here some time ago:

"The Second Death in Rev 20.  The greek word used is "thanatos", which literary means death.  Cease to exist. "

"That looks at first glance, to be very similar to a trick that the Watchtower would use, regarding Greek. Yes thanatos does mean death, thanatos does not mean "cease to exist", not in modern Greek, not in Classical Greek, not in the Koine Greek of the Bible. 

My wife died in 2014, but she did not cease to exist."

Just a thought, sorry to interrupt, carry on! I will go back to doing something else, but are you sure that you are having a difficulty with this topic, as opposed to just looking for ways to be different? Think of various conversations that we have had in chat, and reflect on the possibility, that you might just have a 'need to be unusual'. That is just something to reflect on, not to justify anything to me, but as perhaps something that makes you tick, as a person. If that might be the case, is that a good basis for a belief?

 Traditionalism, does not have to be wrong, and it can be challenged, but when we go against the norms, it is good to wonder, why we feel a need to do so, and to be careful, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Seldom will I find myself smart enough, studied enough, qualified enough, and discerning enough, to think that I should go against thousands of years of theological thought of those who have devoted lives to study. Maybe, tradition have a reason, somtimes, why they came to be.

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Don't attack me, Ezra. Saying I deny the deity of  Christ. You're not the judge of salvation. I'm not against you! I love Jesus, i love others, I serve him and I evangelize and serve others. Don't turn this into a salvation issue when it isn't, Just because we differ on our views.

Luke 9:49-50

49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

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1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have not been following this topic, forgive me if I have missed to point here from not doing so, but I just noted something as I was skimming something quoted.

What I am zeroing in on is something I see here a lot in discussions - that is the habit of making points through re-definition.

For example, a person will say "the Rapture is Jesus returning for the saints, before the tribulation". That may or may not be what happens, but it is not something that the Bible says of the Rapture, that is just defining a doctrine into existence through definition.

Here you have done the same thing:

"even though the definition of death is to cease to exist"

Now, I suppose the there might actually be a dictionary somewhere the says "the definition of death is to cease to exist", I have not checked. However, I would offer, that death does not mean "cease to exist". Even if that is the case in English, which I suspect it is not, that does not mean that is the case in the Bible, which is what you are interested in here. 

The first thing that came to my mind, was the first time I could think of the concept of death in the Bible, was God telling Adam, that on the day that he eats of the fruit, we would die. You know the story, Adam ate of the fruit, and then lived to be 900 something years old, as I recall, so clearly, death did not mean 'cease to exist' in that case.

I think, that "ceasing to exist", is not at all a definition of death, it is one of several possible consequences to death. When I was an atheist, I assumed that I would cease to exist, but I understood, that cessation of life, was a consequence, that was coincidental to death, but that was a result, not the definition. Death in my world view, was the dividing line that separated life, from cessation, but cessation of life, was no more a part of death than life was. Life was on one side of a line, cessation of life on the other, the death was a line between the two, not equalt to cessation.

Later, as a Christian, I came to understand that there was an eternity, that awaited people AFTER death, I became aware that I had a spirit, a part of me that exists in a body now, and can be in a body later, but it is NOT tied to the body, it is just related to a body, both in life, and can be afterward.

I like how it has been said:

"You don't have a soul. You are a soul; you have a body."

In any case, death is not defined as ceasing it exist, it is one possible consequence of death. Redefined terms, is a poor way to defend position.

As I wrote to another poster here some time ago:

"The Second Death in Rev 20.  The greek word used is "thanatos", which literary means death.  Cease to exist. "

"That looks at first glance, to be very similar to a trick that the Watchtower would use, regarding Greek. Yes thanatos does mean death, thanatos does not mean "cease to exist", not in modern Greek, not in Classical Greek, not in the Koine Greek of the Bible. 

My wife died in 2014, but she did not cease to exist."

Just a thought, sorry to interrupt, carry on! I will go back to doing something else, but are you sure that you are having a difficulty with this topic, as opposed to just looking for ways to be different? Think of various conversations that we have had in chat, and reflect on the possibility, that you might just have a 'need to be unusual'. That is just something to reflect on, not to justify anything to me, but as perhaps something that makes you tick, as a person. If that might be the case, is that a good basis for a belief?

 Traditionalism, does not have to be wrong, and it can be challenged, but when we go against the norms, it is good to wonder, why we feel a need to do so, and to be careful, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Seldom will I find myself smart enough, studied enough, qualified enough, and discerning enough, to think that I should go against thousands of years of theological thought of those who have devoted lives. Maybe, tradition have a reason, somtimes, why they came to be.

Yes. Tradition stands when people blindly follow the ones before them not research for themselves. Church history, even hundreds of years can be wrong. 

The reason I go with this, isn't to be "different". It's because it makes sense to me, but I fail to see how why it should be divisive.

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56 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

The reason I go with this, isn't to be "different". It's because it makes sense to me, but I fail to see how why it should be divisive.

I do not think it should be, but people find comfort in what they see as orthodoxy!

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On 7/15/2016 at 10:41 PM, Hawkeye said:

Yes. Tradition stands when people blindly follow the ones before them not research for themselves.

There's a big difference between Tradition and Bible Truth.  Bible Truth -- in this case -- has been accepted traditionally, while only the cults have rejected it.

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On 7/15/2016 at 10:39 PM, Hawkeye said:

Don't attack me, Ezra. Saying I deny the deity of  Christ.

I'm not attacking you, but all the cults who reject Hell also deny the Deity of Christ.  For example check out the Jehovah's Witnesses (below).  So if you wish to go along with their false doctrines be prepared for push-back.

"Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28."

"Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment."

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/

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