Guest shiloh357 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 On 8/21/2016 at 11:49 AM, precepts said: My words are not but words because it's not my words I'm using for proof. It is God's word. There are only two covenants, the old and the new, period. No, God has an eternal Covenant with Abraham that is still in force (Gen. 17: 8-9). God has never rescinded that covenant. God's hand is on Israel today and that is because God is faithful to His word. The Bible doesn't limit "Israel" to the believing remnant. Sorry but your false teaching isn't going to take root here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 On 8/21/2016 at 6:55 PM, precepts said: Spare me the details, friend. The remnant is all of Israel that was left, nothing left but the remnant. You are misinterpreting the OT prophecies, which shouldn't be a surprise since they're more complicated to understand than the definition of remnant. Translation: "Stop quoting Scriptures I don't believe in and stop confusing me with the facts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) On 8/24/2016 at 3:35 AM, inchrist said: Sojourning is not replacement theology.....I have issues with those who seperate ourselves from israel and spiritual denial of gentile inheretance with Israel and counted as a seed of Abraham, So while replacement theology is false so would be the doctrine of dispensationalism Scripture makes it clear in Daniel chapter 9 that the nation of Israel still has duties to fulfill to the Lord before the end of Human history. And Romans also makes it clear that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Church: we become inheritors with Jesus Christ. We do not become one with Israel when we repent and trust in the Lord; we become one with Christ. God made specific promises to Israel that did not depend on their behavior, but upon God's word alone. As for dispensationalism; All throughout Scripture we see the various dispensations at work. Each one is designed to "shoot down" human excuses for sin, and demonstrate why ultimately, man is responsible for his own conduct and wickedness. The various dispensations: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace and the Millennium, all give a different environment that removes an excuse we would use at the judgment, and shows a particular pattern: 1) responsibility, 2) failure, 3) judgment, and 4) grace. Dispensationalism literally interprets Scripture (Bible prophecy in particular), and thus holds to the closest interpretation of scripture IMO, as Jesus literally fulfilled every prophecy concerning the Messiah. Israel is a separate entity from the Church, but this doesn't mean that Israel has had a "different way" to the Lord: salvation has always been by faith in God before the Advent, and specifically in God the Son after the First Coming. We all come to the Lord in faith, and The Messiah (Jesus) is the culmination of what the Jews were to have faith in. And this will hold true into the Tribulation: before the return of Jesus Christ, Israel will mourn for "the one they pierced" and finally recognize Him as their Messiah. We the church have not replaced Israel in God's plans, and that the promises God made to Israel have not been transferred to us in the Church. The promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament will be fulfilled in the Millennium. And as Romans 9 and Daniel 9 show us, in the future God focuses His attention on Israel. We don't get Israel's promises, nor do we replace Israel. If anything, Scripture reinforces Dispensationalism rather than condemning it. And as such, a Dispensational framework confirms a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, a Millennial Kingdom, and the fulfillment of all promises to Israel and the coming reign of Christ. God is not the author of disorder, and in this, we see His plan and His working all throughout history. Edited August 26, 2016 by RobertS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 1, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2016 On 8/26/2016 at 2:10 AM, RobertS said: Scripture makes it clear in Daniel chapter 9 that the nation of Israel still has duties to fulfill to the Lord before the end of Human history. And Romans also makes it clear that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Church: we become inheritors with Jesus Christ. We do not become one with Israel when we repent and trust in the Lord; we become one with Christ. Very odd way of thinking. "There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the church." True. "We become inheritors with Jesus Christ." True again. So the Jew and Gentile are one in Christ. In Christ then, the most important part of Israel, The Jew, and the Gentile are indeed one, in Christ. In fact it could be argued that the only Israel spoken of in the NT are the Jews, spiritual Israel, and if we all are one in Christ, then Jew, Israel, and the Gentiles are one. If anything, Scripture reinforces Dispensationalism rather than condemning it. And as such, a Dispensational framework confirms a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, a Millennial Kingdom, and the fulfillment of all promises to Israel and the coming reign of Christ. God is not the author of disorder, and in this, we see His plan and His working all throughout history. A Dispensational framework confirms a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Dispensationalism is a bit of a crock, innit? What most don't realize is that it has always been Jesus from the beginning. Gen 1:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." The Plan of Jesus death and resurrection, the end of the age, and the 1000 years have always been the plan. There was no other law in all this time of creation that mattered or was changed to deal with or approach man in a different manner. We have been under sin since the Fall and will be till Jesus appears in the clouds. We have always been saved by grace though love of God for us.There is no age of grace. It's always been grace from the beginning. David was saved by grace and wrote about it in the Psalms. Grace did not begin with Jesus of Nazareth. It began with the Word, who is God, who is the Alpha and Omega. We could never be saved any other way. Do you really think the slaughter of animals saved a single soul? Only repentance on our part and grace of God saves us. Obedience is better than sacrifice. I see the proponents of dispensationalism as controllers enslaving those who listen to such nonsense. Mankind must label, compartmentalize, control and rule. Dispensationalism does all that and more. It simply satisfies the need of some to control the minds of their followers by seemingly having great insight that other do not possess. Works great if the goal is to shine pews and increase coffers, hide the truth and control the minds of the weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 1, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2016 On 8/23/2016 at 1:33 AM, shiloh357 said: No, God has an eternal Covenant with Abraham that is still in force (Gen. 17: 8-9). God has never rescinded that covenant. God's hand is on Israel today and that is because God is faithful to His word. The Bible doesn't limit "Israel" to the believing remnant. Sorry but your false teaching isn't going to take root here. Many covenants between God and mankind or individuals. Depends on what we are talking about. Paul was referring to only the saving covenants of God. The old one made of stone, the law of the ten commandments which only brought death, and the new covenant with Jesus resurrected and the giving of life. In this sense there are only two covenants. God's covenant with Abraham is one of multiplication, a covenant of the flesh. Very different than what Paul mentioned and I think that's what shiloh357 is referring to in the post. Even then, we know that gen 17:8-9 isn't all of it. The entire pact is recorded in Gen 17:3-16 and is conditional to the descendants keeping their part of the bargain. It also looks as though the only eternal part of the pact if the land of Canaan and the circumcision. Only those, any, of the circumcision are part of the eternal covenant, not all of, or only, Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccardo Posted November 8, 2016 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 4 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 281 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 167 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/25/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2016 You start with Shalom, then attack my character by saying I conveniently left out Rom. 3:1 your assumption is suggesting I left it out on purpose, Im glad you can read thoughts. Did I say there was no benefit in being a physical Jew, or did I bring up spiritual Jew. Rom. 2:28( For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly in the flesh). I can only assume by your attack myself & Rom.2:28 is you do not understand what is being said here. How do gentiles fit into the equation seeing that God Has only ever had covenants with the Jews. Are we not grafted in? Are we not adopted? Are we not now spiritual Jews because gentiles are defiantly not physical Jews & if we are not we can not be part of the new covenant made only to Jews. Shalom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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