Israel's Salvation

[precepts]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

I read on, and?...And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The Deliverer is Christ and the covenant that takes away their sins is the new covenant! Hebrews chapter eight proves it!

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Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

There are only two covenants. This Paul writing to the Hebrews about the fulfillment of the new covenant and the vanishing away of the old.

 

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As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. 
(Rom 11:26-32)

Which does not change the fact that the remnant saved is all of Israel. There is no national Israel to be saved. The remnant is all.
 

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Notice the distinction between you and they?

It does not change the fact of what "remnant" means. Sometimes it's the translation that skews the message.

 

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The Deliverer will come and banish ungodliness from Jacob (the they, so far).

Which is the new covenant, and the "they" were the Jews who accepted Christ. The Deliverer is Christ. The covenant is the new covenant.

 

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And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." 
(Rom 9:27-28)

Which part of Paul quoting Isa--h and referencing Elijah as an example of Israel not being totally cast off because a remnant he calls the election are saved don't you understand. You're making mountains out of mole hills.
 

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A remnant will be saved...not, are saved.

Paul was quoting Isa--h's prophecy of a remnant being saved or else Israel would have been no more. The context is Paul's election of grace that's the remnant saved, and remnant means all that's left. That was the day. The covenant of forgiveness of sins to Jacob by the Deliverer is the new covenant and Christ.

Edited August 21, 2016 by precepts

[precepts]

1 hour ago, Defending the Name said:

 

That is right only a remnant is saved. Those countless disbelieving Jews who lived and died from the 1st century at the time of Christ until their restoration as the 11th hour workmen have all been lost.  

 

The remnant scripture speaks of are those who come in as the 11th hour workmen before the bridegroom makes his glorious entry. 

Paul specifically points out that the remnant saved is the election. Read the book.

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Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I rest my case, "at this present time." And a remnant means all that remains or all that's left of Israel.

[precepts]

1 hour ago, Defending the Name said:

Israel as a race under Christ and not as a political nation will be saved, in the same way all races under Christ have been saved by the precious blood of Christ. 

This means what it means that all who want to come to the Father need to carry their crosses and not their political flags.  

 

I believe when Jesus said the first shall be last and last shall be first, is alluding to Israel as a race of people, who were supposed to be the first workmen in God's vineyard, finally come as the final workmen on the 11th hour before the bridegrooms glorious entry. 

 

Israel as a race must say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord and they must join the ranks of the Great Commission to preach the gospel to their own race and as the 11th hour workmen, before the bridegroom comes to his sheep. 

 

There is no salvation for any race who do not commit to the Great Commission. 

 

Which part of the remnant called the election by Paul being all that's left of Israel don't you comprehend?

[Guest Robert]

On 8/7/2016 at 0:42 AM, shiloh357 said:

And I see what God sees and I believe His word.

What we're seeing here is "replacement theology", Shiloh; and it's unbliblical. God still has promises to keep to Israel, and anyone claiming that the Church is now "Israel" is trying to commit spiritual theft.

[precepts]

1 hour ago, RobertS said:

What we're seeing here is "replacement theology", Shiloh; and it's unbliblical. God still has promises to keep to Israel, and anyone claiming that the Church is now "Israel" is trying to commit spiritual theft.

You people do this on purpose. You full well know "remnant" means all that's left or remaining, what the election of grace was, what Paul was verifying when he quoted Isa--h and used Elijah for an example of the remnant saved. It's an open and shut case.

What's so funny about this whole thing is? God says anyone who denies Christ have not the father, yet you say they do. God says whosoever keeps company with said individuals to not bid them God's speed because they are part takers of their evil deeds - the written word! Yet, we still have some here who go against the grain and promote a spirit of antichrist doctrine.

Edited August 21, 2016 by precepts

[precepts]

14 hours ago, Yowm said:

The Abrahamic, the Mosaic, and the New. There are at least three. We can't go on til agreed on this point.

You know way better than that:

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Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

There is but two.

Edited August 21, 2016 by precepts

[precepts]

2 hours ago, Yowm said:

Your words are just words without God's Word.

Genesis 17:2,4,7,9-10,13 KJVS
[2] And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. [4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. [7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. [9] And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. [10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. [13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

 

My words are not but words because it's not my words I'm using for proof. It is God's word. There are only two covenants, the old and the new, period.

[Guest Robert]

19 hours ago, precepts said:

You people do this on purpose. You full well know "remnant" means all that's left or remaining, what the election of grace was, what Paul was verifying when he quoted Isa--h and used Elijah for an example of the remnant saved. It's an open and shut case.

What's so funny about this whole thing is? God says anyone who denies Christ have not the father, yet you say they do. God says whosoever keeps company with said individuals to not bid them God's speed because they are part takers of their evil deeds - the written word! Yet, we still have some here who go against the grain and promote a spirit of antichrist doctrine.

Precepts: God still has promises to keep to the nation of Israel;  that isn't "the spirit of Antichrist", that's scripture. The Bible makes that abundantly clear, as well as the fact that Abraham's descendants would . But you have deliberately ignored the prophecies about Israel being restored as a nation, that the temple would be rebuilt, and that when Jesus returns, they would "mourn for the one they had pierced.

 

Paul writes in Scripture:

" I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”And David says, “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,  AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

We see here very clearly, in context, that God has yet salvation planned for Israel. God will bring them back to Him, and they will finally accept Jesus as Messiah when He returns at Armageddon:

"The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. In that day,” declares the LORD, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves." (Zechariah 12, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Something else to think very carefully on: every time someone has harmed His chosen nation, the Lord saw to it that the country who dared laid hands on them paid dearly for it. Israel is still here; the Egyptian Dynasty isn't,the Canaanite's aren't, the Philistine Empire isn't, Assyria isn't, Babylon isn't, the Edomites aren't, Antiochus Epiphanes' kingdom isn't, the Roman Empire isn't, and Nazi Germany isn't. The people in Israel today have every right to be there, and the Lord is not finished with them.

God's word is very clear on this matter, and leaves no room for question or debate. He has not forsaken the Jewish people, but is seeking to restore them through the Messiah (Jesus) as He has promised. So, if I'm "going against the grain" by defending Israel, it is because the "grain" you speak of is not the word of God. I stand with Israel and the God of the Bible, and against those who oppose Israel and wish to claim her promises for themselves.

 

The Word of God is clear on this; your move.

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by RobertS

[precepts]

On 8/21/2016 at 5:32 PM, RobertS said:

Precepts: God still has promises to keep to the nation of Israel;  that isn't "the spirit of Antichrist", that's scripture. The Bible makes that abundantly clear, as well as the fact that Abraham's descendants would . But you have deliberately ignored the prophecies about Israel being restored as a nation, that the temple would be rebuilt, and that when Jesus returns, they would "mourn for the one they had pierced.

 

Paul writes in Scripture:

" I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”And David says, “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,  AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

We see here very clearly, in context, that God has yet salvation planned for Israel. God will bring them back to Him, and they will finally accept Jesus as Messiah when He returns at Armageddon:

"The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. In that day,” declares the LORD, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves." (Zechariah 12, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Something else to think very carefully on: every time someone has harmed His chosen nation, the Lord saw to it that the country who dared laid hands on them paid dearly for it. Israel is still here; the Egyptian Dynasty isn't,the Canaanite's aren't, the Philistine Empire isn't, Assyria isn't, Babylon isn't, the Edomites aren't, Antiochus Epiphanes' kingdom isn't, the Roman Empire isn't, and Nazi Germany isn't. The people in Israel today have every right to be there, and the Lord is not finished with them.

God's word is very clear on this matter, and leaves no room for question or debate. He has not forsaken the Jewish people, but is seeking to restore them through the Messiah (Jesus) as He has promised. So, if I'm "going against the grain" by defending Israel, it is because the "grain" you speak of is not the word of God. I stand with Israel and the God of the Bible, and against those who oppose Israel and wish to claim her promises for themselves.

 

The Word of God is clear on this; your move.

 

Spare me the details, friend. The remnant is all of Israel that was left, nothing left but the remnant.

You are misinterpreting the OT prophecies which shouldn't be a surprise since they're more complicated to understand than the definition of remnant.

Edited August 23, 2016 by precepts

[Guest Robert]

On 8/21/2016 at 5:55 PM, precepts said:

Spare me the details, friend. The remnant is all of Israel that was left, nothing left but the remnant.

You are misinterpreting the OT prophecies, which shouldn't be a surprise since they're more complicated to understand than the definition of remnant.

Since when is Romans, which also demonstrates that Israel has not been forgotten, "OT"?

 I've demonstrated in the bolded parts that God has not abandoned Israel, and specifically says " that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved ". Scripture also says " I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. "

The church is not the remnant of Israel; the Jewish in Israel are the rightful heirs of the land and promises God made to the nation. The Church is a different entity, composed of Jew and Gentile believers in Christ, with a destiny that will be fulfilled in the Rapture before the Tribulation.

BTW: I wouldn't be smiling right about now; I've seen this "theory" posted by you on other forums, and many didn't buy it either. Roaming from site to site doesn't add anything to the validity of an argument, especially when it was never valid to begin with.