Begotten not in four gospels

[Reformed Baptist]

On 7/14/2016 at 8:51 PM, Azizrasul said:

Why does the word 'begotten' not appear in the four gospels in the original Greek?

Because it's an English word, why would you be looking for an English word in Greek manuscripts? 

As has already been explained 'begotten' is a translation of the Greek word μονογενής  as well as John 1:14;18; 3:16; 3:18 it is also found Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, beyond the gospels it is used in Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9. Contrary to common belief though the English phrase 'only begotten' was always meant to be understood in the sense of 'specially chosen' or 'unique' as becomes clear when we see that KJV translators use to describe Isaac in Heb 11:17 - Isaac was not Abraham's only child but he was a unique child in that he was the child of promise - whereas Ishmael was not. 

[Reformed Baptist]

On 7/14/2016 at 8:51 PM, Azizrasul said:

Why does the word 'begotten' not appear in the four gospels in the original Greek?

Because it's an English word, why would you be looking for an English word in Greek manuscripts? 

As has already been explained 'begotten' is a translation of the Greek word μονογενής  as well as John 1:14;18; 3:16; 3:18 it is also found Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, beyond the gospels it is used in Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9. Contrary to common belief though the English phrase 'only begotten' was always meant to be understood in the sense of 'specially chosen' or 'unique' as becomes clear when we see that KJV translators use to describe Isaac in Heb 11:17 - Isaac was not Abraham's only child but he was a unique child in that he was the child of promise - whereas Ishmael was not. 

[Reformed Baptist]

22 hours ago, Ezra said:

The only problem with that is that *only begotten* is the only legitimate way of translating monogenes, unless it is *uniquely begotten*. But the modern versions misrepresent this with *only Son*.  They do not say *uniquely begotten*. 

The begetting within the Godhead has no relationship to human begetting, but indicated an eternal and loving Father-Son relationship.

So the KJV gets it wrong in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38 then?  

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We are called upon to simply proclaim the Gospel (which includes the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God -- being God Himself -- who became Man for our redemption).

In a sense I agree with you - it is the gospel that is the power of God unto Salvation, but unless we are neognostics surely that proclamation has to be in a language the people can understand? Remember when Paul writes to the Galatians he speaks of Christ been 'clearly portrayed' to them  Gal 3:1 

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Paul told the Athenians that He was the *Unknown God* which they acknowledged, since mankind cannot really comprehend the Godhead.

No, really he didn't, he said used the shrine to the unknown God to explain who the one true God is - mankind is quite capable of comprehending the Godhead what mankind can never achieve is fully comprehending the nature and character of the Godhead.

So, whilst I am in full agreement that we should not philosophize beyond the teaching of scripture in regards the the mystery of the Godhead I do believe we have a responsibility to put the gospel out there in the language of the people we are seeking to witness to.  

 

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

So the KJV gets it wrong in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38 then? 

What did the KJV get wrong?  Do any of these passages have any relevance to the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? 

It would appear that you are simply trying to argue for the sake of argument, which does not make for edification. 

Human begetting has no relevance to the Father-Son relationship within the Godhead. Human begetting involves a father and a mother. Christ is the Son from eternity, with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

[Reformed Baptist]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

What did the KJV get wrong? 

Absolutely nothing, and that is precisely my point. However you asserted the following:

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The only problem with that is that *only begotten* is the only legitimate way of translating monogenes, unless it is *uniquely begotten*. But the modern versions misrepresent this with *only Son*.  They do not say *uniquely begotten*.  

I was merely pointing that that if your claim is correct then the KJV must be wrong it is translation in those texts because it is not translated "only begotten" but rather a different phrase with a semantic overlap is used. 

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Do any of these passages have any relevance to the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? 

 

Absolutely nothing, but they do pertain to your assertion that there is only one way to translate μονογενής    which is what I was addressing.

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It would appear that you are simply trying to argue for the sake of argument, which does not make for edification. 

 

Or maybe I am hoping we can all learn something about language and how it works that will help us all in getting a better grip on the word of God. Words and phrases have semantic domains (ranges of meaning) and context often dictates where in that range the word/phrase settles, furthermore when it comes to translation there is very a word/ phrase in the 'go to' language that is exactly the same semantic range as the word/ phrase being translated - hence there is always more then one way to legitimately translate any word/ phrase from one language to another. Now, personally I find it very helpful and useful to know I need to take the time to study a word/ phrase in context if I want to get to what it means

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Human begetting has no relevance to the Father-Son relationship within the Godhead. Human begetting involves a father and a mother. Christ is the Son from eternity, with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

 

 

Really, then why does God employ the  anthropomorphism to explain the relationship between the Father and the Son? Indeed why employ the terms Father and Son either? These terms are used to show us the relationship that exists between these two persons of the Godhead - they help to convey to our poor and limited minds something of the relationship that exists between these two persons, furthermore they suggest that the Son is who he is because of who the father is (and not the other way around), the same idea is suggested by the use of the phrase "only begotten" (John 1:14; 18; 3:16;18), the Son owes his 'generation' to the Father, but the same cannot be said the other way around. In relation to this, notice also the use of 'firstborn' (Col 1:15; Heb 1:6) Of course any anthropomorphism can be taken too far (as all idiom can) and so the Bible also provides checks and balances, for example were are told the the word was with God in the beginning (John 1:1), we are told the Son and the father 'are one' (John 10:30) etc. Hence we speak of the 'eternal generation' to make sure we are not been misunderstood.  

The point being that the bible is using terms of human relationships and birth to help us grasp with finite minds something of the nature of the infinite God, so actually 'human begetting' does have a relevance to the  the Father-Son relationship within the Godhead for us - which is precisely why the Bible uses them

 

[Azizrasul]

FresnoJoe, the translation of Psalms 2:6-8 in the NRSV does not contain the word ‘begotten’.

kwikphilly, the uniqueness of Jesus (peace be upon him) is the fact that he had a mother and no father, hence one of a kind. Also in Hebrews 11:17 in the NRSV does not contain the word ‘begotten’.

 

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… Our only HOPE is in Christ…

 

I agree, but it depends what you mean. Read below.

 

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I guess the reason you won't find the word 'begotten' in modern translations (such as the NRSV) is that it is no longer in everyday use. We have other ways of saying the same thing.

 

It’s because it doesn’t appear in the Greek, nothing to do with every day use. After all its Christian scholars that have thrown the word out after much debate.

Blueminou, Psalm 2:7 does not contain the word ‘begotten’ in the NRSV!

Ezra, the Christian scholars did not use the word ‘begotten’ in the NSRV as they deemed it not be the correct translation, hence the word ‘only son’.

 

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4. Jesus is the Word of God and also Truth. Therefore we must accept what the Bible says as true, regardless of how logical or illogical it sounds.

 

Really?

 

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Dictionaries are worthless when trying to penetrate spiritual verities. As I said, Christians are not obligated to *explain* Divine mysteries.

 

But if you believe in the 4 gospels then you need to read them correctly and not make things up according to your own desires.

Reformed Baptist.

 

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Because it's an English word, why would you be looking for an English word in Greek manuscripts?

 

But I was looking for the equivalent word for ‘begotten’ in the 4 Greek gospels and not to be found.

 

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As has already been explained 'begotten' is a translation of the Greek word μονογενής  as well as John 1:14;18; 3:16; 3:18 it is also found Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, beyond the gospels it is used in Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9. Contrary to common belief though the English phrase 'only begotten' was always meant to be understood in the sense of 'specially chosen' or 'unique' as becomes clear when we see that KJV translators use to describe Isaac in Heb 11:17 - Isaac was not Abraham's only child but he was a unique child in that he was the child of promise - whereas Ishmael was not.

 

Here are the verses you referenced. Using the NRSV, can you point out where the word ‘begotten’ appears?

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 1:18

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:18

 As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her.

Luke 7:12

because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying. As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him.

Luke 8:42

A man in the crowd called out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child.

Luke 9:38

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,

Hebrews 11:17

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

1 John 4:9

If it was and is common belief that the

 

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English phrase 'only begotten' was always meant to be understood in the sense of 'specially chosen' or 'unique'

 

then why add the word ‘begotten’ in the first place? In my opinion it was a deliberate attempt to deceive the readers of the 4 Gospels to think that Jesus (peace be upon him) was something that he was not and claimed to be. In fact neither did Zakariya, John or Mary (peace be upon them) ever declared that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the ‘begotten’ son of God. May God forgive me for saying such a thing.

Lastly, let us see what Jesus (peace be upon him) did say.

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.^{[a] 30} Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Mark 12:29

He talks about the ONE God as Moses (peace be upon him) said in the past and other prophets and messengers also said. The message is exactly the same.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is unique due to his birth but that’s no big deal. Adam (peace be upon him) didn’t have a mother or a father. Again no big deal as God can create as He wishes. There are a few prophets in the Bible who are referred to as the son of God, not just Jesus (peace be upon him). His message is what is important.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Azizrasul

[OneLight]

Shalom Azizrasul,

Why do you insist on using a version of the bible that does not contain a word you are looking for?  The word begotten comes from the late 14th century, and you are in the 21st century.  That is 700 years in which the language and culture has changed a lot.  There are many words used beck then that are not used today.

 

[HAZARD]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 5:51 AM, Azizrasul said:

Why does the word 'begotten' not appear in the four gospels in the original Greek?

The word begotten is used many times throughout the Word of God from Genesis to revelation.

Every Word: begotten,   AV (Gen-Rev),
Verses 1 through 24 of 24,
24 hits shown of 24

Genesis
1
Leviticus
1
Numbers
1
Deuteronomy
1
Judges
1
Job
1
Psalms
1
Isaiah
1
Hosea
1
John
4
Acts
1
1 Corinthians
1
Philemon
1
Hebrews
3
1 Peter
1
1 John
3
Revelation
1

Gen 5:4
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Lev 18:11
The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Num 11:12
Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
Deu 23:8
The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.
Jdg 8:30
And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his12 body begotten: for he had many wives.
Job 38:28
Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Psa 2:7
¶ I will declare the decree:6 the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Isa 49:21
Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Hos 5:7
They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a month devour them with their portions.
Joh 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Joh 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Act 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
1Co 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Phm 1:10
I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
1Pe 1:3
¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant1 mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Jo 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 5:1
¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:18
¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

[Azizrasul]

Shalom Azizrasul,

Why do you insist on using a version of the bible that does not contain a word you are looking for?  The word begotten comes from the late 14th century, and you are in the 21st century.  That is 700 years in which the language and culture has changed a lot.  There are many words used beck then that are not used today.

Assalaamu Aleykum OneLight

I am not using the NRSV because it doesn’t have the word I am looking for. I’m using the NRSV as it is a more accurate English translation of the 4 man-made Greek gospels. Also I am not looking for the word as it doesn’t exist in the first place, that was the central point of the thread. How old the translation is again immaterial, it’s the accuracy of the translation that I am mostly concentrating on. If Christians believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is indeed the ‘begotten’ son of God (may God forgive me), it’s not unreasonable to ask for evidence of this even if it’s for the sake of Christians themselves. I rather listen to Mark 12:29 where Jesus (peace be upon him) is telling us what the main commandment is.

For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life? Matthew 16:26

The word begotten is used many times throughout the Word of God from Genesis to revelation.

But it doesn’t appear in the 4 man-made Greek gospels. That is the title of the thread.

In the bible there are only 8 occurrences of the word ‘begotten’. Some of the verses you quoted are incorrect based on a correct translation e.g.

The days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years; and he had other sons and daughters. Genesis 5:4

Did I conceive all this people? Did I give birth to them, that you should say to me, ‘Carry them in your bosom, as a nurse carries a sucking child, to the land that you promised on oath to their ancestors’? Numbers 11:12

Etc. etc.

 

Hence my question still remains unanswered, which is why is the word ‘begotten’ not appear in the 4 man-made Greek gospels of the NT?

[OneLight]

Hi Azizrasul,

Try looking into the English/Greek Interlinear where you can see what the Greeks words are beside the English.  You can also look through many translations at once by using Bible Gateway.  You can also use sites like Strong's Concordance to get the number of the words used so you can do deeper studies.  I use The Whole Word Study Dictionary: New Testament for a deeper understanding of when, where and why these words were used and what they meant in the context they were spoken.

As for where the word begotten appears in scripture, the version you use may only record 8 while the version I use records 18 places it is used.  The dictionary indicates 19 times, meaning that translations are not direct word for word copies from one language to another. 

I admire and encourage you to continue to study hard!  Yet, I suggest you add more tools to your tool belt so you can have a finer, more accurate end result.