A Catholic belief-- Worshipping saints? - TWO

[learning boy]

Hello brothers/sisters!

This is a continuation to my first post, ' A Catholic belief-- Worshipping saints? ', as I can't post responses. Check it out here to get further information and not be confused : 

kwikphilly said:

 I was surprised to know that "most" of your friends are catholics,that's different.......so,may I ask,how did you come to islam?Or perhaps you asre referring to the acquaintances you made on the internet,just wondering?

response: I was raised muslim by an Islamic family. To be more specific, I was raised Shia muslim, one of the two major denominations of Islam, the majority being Sunni Islam.

As I grew up I did not touch on many other faiths but around 13 years old my curiosity finally sparked up a thought about our abrahamic religions. I began researching and studying, and my parents also did not mind it at all which was a blessing. And for catholic friends, I meant that in my life at the moment. Most of my school friends / community are catholics so I've learned a fair amount from them.

 

 

Steven S said: 

 

Simply put, the catholics believe that they decide who are and aren't saints based on a process called canonization. This is done posthumously and involves a few steps, such as investigating the life of the person in question, how they lived, their deeds, etc.. It also includes beatification, which is basically a "verification" of a miraculous occurrence being attributed to their intercession after death. Basically, in lay terms, this means that someone was to have prayed for them to intercede with God, after they are dead, and then that prayer is answered, indicating, in the opinion of the catholic church, that the person is in heaven and that God is answering their prayers. This typically has to occur one more time and then, after this process, they are canonized.

Not to beat around the bush, none of this is mentioned in the actual bible. The bible mentions saints many times throughout both the old and new testament, but it is either directly plural or in the plural sense with the one instance of the singular version being Philippians 4:21 (Php 4:21  Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you. ) The bible never mentions a process, at all, like the one mentioned above. The general understanding of the word as it stands amongst evangelical and most general protestant denominations is that the saints are followers of Christ, people whose ultimate faith lays in God. I believe that the greek root in this instance actually means something along the lines of "one who has been made holy" or something along those lines (I fully admit that I am no greek expert by any stretch). All of my brothers and sisters here are saints, as are all the ones who have physically passed on before me.

..........

In short, this is a practice based on tradition that has been developed over centuries in the catholic church. There is no biblical basis for either the canonization process or prayer to saints. Whether or not it is idolatry in a technical sense, it is certainly not a biblically rooted practice.

..........

response: Very good context! I also see this is how Catholics believe. Now I have one question:

Even if intercession is not biblical, is it still fair to deem it wrong or idolatry? I am sure there are many Christian practices that may not be exactly biblical, but I still do not think it negates the idea of intercessions. Intercession may be inaccurate in terms of bible evidence, but is it morally wrong and/or religiously wrong? A fair and just God should say that it isn't; Jesus chose John as a disciple and apostle, John was steadfast on his faith and close to God both physically and spiritually (Jesus even personally praised him during one point in time in the bible), so If I asked Jesus, on behalf of your clean apostle John, to grant me a prayer, why is that wrong?

John SAW Jesus and Jesus PRAISED him for his good intentions and motives. If I asked Jesus for something, and mentioned John, and knowing how close John was to Jesus, would that not further facilitate the granting of my prayer? I am reiterating the same question over and over again but I'm just trying to be as clear as possible.

Sorry to get into detail, but if the majority Christian faith believe in intercessions (Catholics and denominations of), it gets me kind of curious as to why the minority (Christians; not by much though) would not believe in it. Is it possible to say that half of Christians would not be sent to paradise, even if they believe in Jesus as God and Savior, because they intercede with saints? That would definitely have an impact of how Christians view the atonement and salvation. ( See my first post about this topic)

 

 

Edited July 22, 2016 by learning boy

[Steve_S]

Just for clarification, requesting intercessory prayer from other believers who are still with us here, physically, is certainly a biblical practice. I addressed this in the other thread as well and I will refer you back to that for that specific question.

I do believe however, that your question on intercession in this particular context is with regards to those brothers and sisters who are no longer with us physically, but have passed on. I think this is probably best addressed in Deuteronomy (emphasis added by me):

Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
Deu 18:11  or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

I would note here that some English translations use the specific word "necromancy" in place of "one who calls up the dead." This is pretty much all the clarity that I personally require insofar as when I consider whether or not it is a wise practice to attempt to communicate with the dead. This practice is directly associated with witchcraft in the bible, and should be avoided. I believe that it is fair to deem it wrong based on this alone.

I do realize that a catholic would argue otherwise, having had this conversation with devout catholics on more than one occasion. Suffice it to say, I reject the catholic position based on this verse alone.

However, there are other considerations. As a practical matter, throughout the bible only God is revealed as being both omniscient and omnipresent. Nowhere in scripture are those who have passed on described as having characteristics after physical death that would even allow them to be able to hear the prayers of people who are still bodily present in this world. Only God knows all, only God hears all, only God sees all. The idea of praying to a saint who has passed on from this life is quite presumptuous based on this standard as well.

Another consideration is that there is not one single, solitary, example of this practice occurring *anywhere* in the holy scriptures. This should give people pause in and of itself as well. One could counter this with "well, there is no example of riding a bus in the bible either, but many people do it," and this is true. However, while the lack of an example of a benign daily activity being present in the bible does not make that practice wrong, the lack of an institutionalized spiritual practice being evidence in the scriptures should give anyone pause when they consider whether or not it is legitimate. God taught us how to worship Him and God taught us how to pray through the scriptures. Never in those scriptures is this sort of intercession mentioned.

As far as whether or not it is specifically idolatrous, I believe that in practice, it is, no matter what claims of intent are made. Let's look at the Salve Regina. This is basically a hymn to Mary. This is also spoken when one does the rosary I believe. The text is below (emphasis added by me).

Quote

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

Firstly, note the worshipful manner in which this prayer is opened "Hail, holy queen, mother of mercy." This alone is problematic.

Also, Mary is called "our life, our sweetness and our hope" There are an abundant number of verses in the bible that tell us, in no uncertain terms, that our only hope is both in God and from God. We are told that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Basically, right here Mary has been ascribed attributes that are *only* ascribed to God. This is heresy, plain and simple.

Later on, she is then referred to as "most gracious advocate" and basically asked for mercy. The bible tells us who the real advocate is:

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jn 2:2  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So, let's look at a few of the attributes that are actually only possessed by God, but have been given to Mary in just these little snippets of catholic doctrine, which are not even the tip, of the tip, of the iceberg.

1. Omnipresence (can hear the prayers of all).

2.  That she is worthy of worship (which is clear in how the opening of this hymn/prayer begins).

3.  That she is a special sort of advocate (most gracious advocate).

4.  That she is the provider of hope (which is in truth only God).

5.  That she is "our life" (which, again, is only Christ).

If you contrast the way that this doctrine is described in lay terms when speaking directly with a catholic apologist (it's just like asking your best friend to pray for you here on earth) with how this doctrine is actually functionally applied (in a worshipful corporate manner) then it is painfully obvious that there is a sense of worship when approaching at least some saints. This is a problem. God is the only one worthy of worship. Worshiping anything that is not God is the very most basic definition of idolatry.

Now, you basically asked if it is possible for someone who has fallen into this doctrine to enter paradise. That is a difficult question, but, I do believe that if one has put their faith in Christ and belongs to Christ that they will one day be with Him:

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom 10:8  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9  that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I think it's quite likely that there are many catholics who are truly saved, who have put their faith in Christ, but who are sitting under false doctrines that are very damaging and dangerous (such as the one we have been discussing). For those people, I believe they will one day be with me in paradise. There are also many who leave the catholic church for these very reasons. The obvious concern is for those whom never truly put their faith in Christ, be they catholics or not, because they will not enter paradise.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Whether a person is a catholic or a pagan or an atheist or what have you, if that person does not put their faith in Christ, they are lost. Christ is the only redeemer and the only High Priest - the only avenue of reconciliation with God.

 

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Hi learning boy,

I would just like to take a moment to respond with Steve to your question with a few thoughts of my own.

1 Timothy 2

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5  For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles. 8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.

Hebrews 4 also touches on how we relate to God

Before Jesus, people had priests, men who were appointed to act as a go between between mankind and God. In the tabernacle and latter is the temple priest approached God, interceding for those they represented.

When Jesus died on the cross, He did so as a once for all time sacrifice for sins, and priests where then no longer needed. In the temple, there was a veil, a large curtain where the chief priest would go to approach God, and no one else was allowed. When Jesus died, an interesting thing occurred. Matthew described this in chapter 27:

"50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 

This huge curtain, was split from the top to the bottom. I believe this was a symbolic act of God. No longer was there a need to this separation, no need for a priest to intercede with God on behalf on mankind. So, the temple veil was destroyed, but notice that the veil was torn from the top to the bottom, demonstrating that his was an action of God, reaching down to man, not the works of man, attempting t reach up to God.

In Hebrews 4 we read:

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

So, my message to you is, that we no longer have a need for priests, Jesus is our high priest. We do not need to pray to Mary or to saints, or any other dead people, because we have direct access to God. God hears everything we can say, knows every intention of our heart. Seeing that this is the case we who believe, have the same access to God, as others, whether they are with God, or with us on earth, we have a direct line from our heart to God's heart, making praying to saints to be frivolous.

That being said however, we do pray for each other. We pray, not because God cannot or does not hear us, but because it encourages others when we pray for them and with them, it gives others that very tangible connection, that we have as members of the family of God, until the day when all believers, all of God's family will be together with Him.

I think it would also be helpful to you, to read 2 Corinthians, chapter 3.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings learning boy...

     Nice to see you again & thanks for sharing.....one thing to consider is that the rcc has their own "catholic bible",,,,,to make it very simple ,the Hebrew & the Greek texts were translated into Latin,for centuries the rcc church services were performed in Latin only & reading the BIble was not even a consideration for anyone outside of the parish priests & clergy,,,,,By the time the catholic bible was translated into English it included "sacraments" and many other "traditions & customs",,,,,,much has been "added" to the Word of God",that is what originally sent up the red flags for me personally,,,,,,Most catholics that I know of,or have known do not even possess a Bible,the read a Catholic Missile from when they were children & then read the catholic version......Steve said much about your question about intercession,personally I don't believe the dead can hear anyone on earth.......they declare a person a saint after they have performed 3 Miracles,documented & approved by the rcc,,,,,,,this is not found anywhere in Gods Word,saints are sinners Saved,,,,,,

    But rather than talk about a false doctrine why don't we talk about what the Word of God says,we have Jesus as our Great Mediator,He makes continual Intercession for His Own.....

Quote

4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God andone mediator between God and men, the man ChristJesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time

                                                                                                                                                1 Timothy 2:5

Christianity is about an intimate & personal Relationship with God,in Christ,,,,,it is not about a religious organization,traditions of men,rituals,customs or anything of this world.......                                                 Praise Jesus                                                                             With love-in Christ,Kwik

[FresnoJoe]

Of

“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. John 15:3-4 (New American Standard Bible)

Prayer

Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25 (New American Standard Bible)

And Love

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23 (New American Standard Bible)