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Sequence-of-Events Analysis


Marcus O'Reillius

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13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

It seems we both agree that the Lord will return to heaven after the tribulation & extra days, & rule over all & not from the earth.

Hi Marilyn,

Yes, when you get down to basics, we all agree that our Lord rules.
However, how we get to that point involves a lot of differing opinions, over which we argue incessantly.

It is strange to me how people latch onto a particular way of looking at things, and rarely, if ever, have a seen a person change their initial position!
My pastor is rooted in Post-Trib because that is what they taught at his seminary school.
Now, I have gone over my material with him because of his knowledge of the Kione Greek, and he's heard all my points, and we've talked about them at length - 
- and he has no argument which negates what I've presented to him - 
- Still, in the end, he says he's going to stick to his teachers' teachings and stay "last day," Post-Trib.

For most of the people who do post (many lurk and just read), I think they have too much emotional energy tied up in their eschatology.
They've invested so much time in arranging the chairs on the deck of the ship that they can stand no rearrangement.
When this happens, usually the discussion quickly turns into an argument; each side trying to score points and undo the other side.
Again,  I have never seen anyone change their position in the face of such combativeness.

Quite a few are one-verse-Charlies, and going on one simple part, make up the whole around, what in my opinion, is a flawed take on it.
- Like using Peter to say when Jesus comes the whole world melts to nothingness.
Then, any other argument or prophecy you bring to their table is summarily rejected because it does not fit with their set way of thinking.

On the whole, I avoid telling people I study eschatology because it is the realm of so many crackpot ideas.
All too many people have a 'this means that, and that means this' approach and they come up with the most bizarre scenarios.
This is an idle curiosity among many, and all kinds of conjecture is permitted in what I think is wild speculation, and that group indulges in all kinds of fantasy.

One group who stand out are those on a "mission from God" to wipe out heretical eschatology!
These people really have an axe to grind, and they rarely have anything edifying to contribute: its their way or the highway.
Sometimes, I let them get my goat, like WPM on another board...
There are one or two here like that, well, maybe not as bad as him.

All in all, I do like to see what people come up with.
It helps me to hone my approach, and I welcome constructive criticism.  
(Usually all I get is 'YOUR WRONG' response because I bump into their eschatology - and the argument turns adversarial.)
I like to see where we diverge so I can examine junctions in how we form our respective eschatologies.
Once I see where a person is coming from, it usually explains why there is a split in our conclusions.

Thanks for reading,
Mark

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Going on,

Revelation 19:1 - 20:15

It starts out right before the last battle after the sixth Bowl Judgment when the ways are made for the Kings of the East and Armageddon is about to commence.

  • Rev 19:1-4 - The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven

  • Rev 19:14 - Jesus and His army (the 144,000) go out to do battle

  • Rev 19:20 - Victory at Armageddon: anti-Christ and false prophet captured

    • They are judged and thrown while yet alive into Hell

  • Rev 20:2-3 - Satan imprisoned

  • Rev 20:4-5 - Martyrs made alive / First Resurrection complete.

  • Rev 20:6 – Millennium

  • Rev 20:7 – Satan released

  • Rev 20:8 – battle at the end of the Millennium / all destroyed

  • Rev 20:11-15 – Great White Throne Judgment of the Dead

So let's add this to our list:

The first two points come before the seventh Bowl. The sixth Bowl of the one ‘seven’ has the armies of the world coming to the hill country of Ephraim.  In this scene in Heaven, the Great Multitude is heard but not seen.  The distinction of the Great Multitude not being present shows that God does not need billions of souls to take on hundreds of millions when He goes out with His army.  As God did not need thousands for Gideon to take on the Midianites, so too does Jesus not need all His Bride to wage war.  The idea that the Church can conquer the world, as most Post-Trib eschatology places us, takes away from Christ’s Glory and Power.

The third bullet point comes with the seventh Trumpet and nears its completion.  The judgment of the two most evil men follows.  There may some span of time in this.  In the broad overview of the end in Revelation chapters 4 through 11, after the completion of the one ‘seven’ is the time “has come” which means it is imminent, for judging the dead – the two captured – and rewarding the Saints. 

Judging them to Hell comes after the Earth-changing Great Earthquake, and then the rest follow the one 'seven.'

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea”

    • with ten Kings (Council of Ministers)

    • Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation

    • Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)

  • Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come

  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven'

    • Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos.

    • He wages war against the Saints

    • We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)

    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky'

  • Armies surround Jerusalem

  • Midpoint Abomination Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ

    • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever

    • Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath

    • Great Tribulation

  • Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD

    • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man

    • Jesus touches down upon the earth

    • Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion

    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked

    • Son of Man coming on the clouds

    • Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds

    • Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation

    • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal

    • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned

      • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire

  • Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord

    • Second Trumpet  - 1/3rd of sea to blood

    • Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter

    • Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck

    • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment

    • Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed

    • Seventh Trumpet

      • First Bowl - Sores on Man

      • Second Bowl - All sea to blood

      • Third Bowl - All water to blood

      • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat

      • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark

      • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon

        • Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss.

        • The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven

        • Jesus and His army go out to do battle

      • Seventh Bowl –

        • end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator

        • Victory at Armageddon

        • anti-Christ and false prophet captured

        • Two Witnesses arise

        •  Earth changing earthquake

  • End of the one ‘seven

    • Beast of a Man thrown into Hell

  • First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods)

  • Christ returns to Heaven

    • Satan imprisoned

    • Martyrs made alive

    • Rewarding the Saints

  • Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ

    • Saints rule the earth

  • Satan released at end of Millennium

    • Revolt of the nations / their destruction

  • Great White Throne Judgment

So we see a natural end repeated four times in the book of Revelation, 11:13 at the end of the sidebar account, 11:19 at the end of the Seal/Scroll chronology, 16:20-21 at the end of the Harvest account of the one 'seven', and 19:20 as the narrative continues right before the end and advances into the Millennium and beyond for all eternity.

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And, since I covered this on the Pre-Wrath defense thread:

 

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

Rather than go over 2Th 2, which is another major linear narrative any good eschatology will have to build upon in order to have a complete framework, I'll just get to my conclusion which comes after six pages of source material later in this book.

The initial list starts out fairly simple, but it is made difficult because the order Paul words it. He says this and that don't happen UNTIL this other thing and that other thing happen. So the order isn't as clear-cut as it can be, and some people mix up the one being removed as being the Church - which is an easy enough error to make.

However, the one being removed, while known to the Thessalonians is lost to us - but one thing, the one has to be removed BEFORE the Man of Lawlessness will be revealed - and then the Day of Christ will come.

The basic list is, putting the two events conditioned by Paul's prerequisite use of "unless" and buttressed by coming "first" beforehand:

  • The Rebellion

  • Man of lawlessness is revealed

  • Second coming of our Lord

  • Our being gathering to Him

And after incorporating a lot of the other things Paul lists in verses 4 through 8, I come up with this refined sequence-of-events:

  • The rebellion occurs

  • Opposition and exaltation

  • The “one” removed from the midst

  • Setting himself up as God

  • The man of lawlessness revealed

  • Jesus comes

  • Our being gathering to Him

  • The man of lawlessness is undone

  • He is done away with entirely.

In addition to the gathering up in 2Th 2:1, is this sequencing of the Rapture in the previous letter to the Thessalonians:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Notice how Paul gives the gathering up as if it were happening to them at that time.  This is the nature of an "observer-true" point-of-view statement.  The same treatment is made in 1Th 3:13 when an observer to the Rapture first sees Jesus coming on the clouds with the “Holy” which is usually translated as Saints.  Here in 1st Thessalonians 4, the order of events is as follows:

 

  •         The Lord descends from Heaven with a shout

  •          Trumpet call of God (the Last Trumpet of 1Co 15:52)

  •          The Dead in Christ

  •          We who are alive and remain are caught up in the clouds.

The resurrection of the Dead in Christ comes after Jesus comes.  That is all.  In the sequence-of-events the only thing necessary in any compilation is that this come after that.  As Jesus performs more than one act when He comes, sequencing the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ must come after dissimilar events but It comes before, and I would say, right before the gathering of the Elect.

As Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives first, as indicated in Acts 1:11, Revelation 14:1, and Zechariah 14:4 - and as the 144,000 are "mustered" before the Harvest in both the sixth Seal and Revelation chapter 14 – therefore, the first rule in sequencing subsequent information is not to violate that ordering.  Thus, the Trumpet call of God, as indicative of a literal future-aspect of John 5:25 comes not immediately after Jesus’ descent, but immediately before the gathering of the Elect on the earth.  In addition, Paul gives another observer-true statement from the Elects’ viewpoint of Jesus’ coming immediately before their Rapture in 1Th 3:13:

…at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

            So what can be said, is that before Jesus, who is on the clouds, gathers up those who are alive and remain on the earth, He first must resurrect the Dead in Christ.  Thus, the Trumpet call of God, and the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ are sequenced right before His Coming on the clouds.

  • The rebellion occurs

  • Opposition and exaltation

  • The “one” removed from the midst

  • Setting himself up as God

  • The man of lawlessness revealed

    • The Last Trumpet Call of God

    • The Dead in Christ are Resurrected

  • Jesus comes on the clouds with the Saints

    • Those on the earth being gathering to Him

  • The man of lawlessness is undone

  • He is done away with entirely.

    The one removed happens before the midpoint abomination when the anti-Christ is fully revealed. Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord, what Paul calls the Day of Christ. Since Jesus is Lord and Christ, the two are synonymous. The rebellion, along with the Opposition and exaltation match up very well with the worship of the beast (rebellion against God).  

Now the first thing to observe is the match up with the long list we've already generated. The rebellion, along with the Opposition and exaltation match up very well with the worship of the beast (rebellion against God).  The one removed happens before the midpoint abomination when the anti-Christ is fully revealed. Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord, what Paul calls the Day of Christ. Since Jesus is Lord and Christ, the two are synonymous.

Our being gathered to Him is exactly like what happens on the Day of the Lord passage in the Olivet Discourse and the Harvest Account of the one 'seven.' This naturally results in the Great Multitude coming into Heaven after the sixth Seal Day of the Lord sun/moon/star event.

After we go up, the anti-Christ is undone. He faces an ever-downward spiral of desolation after desolation for about three years and in my estimation a bit more. In the end: he is done away with entirely as he is thrown into Hell. Putting the two lists together results in an overall sequence-of-events which preserves every major eschatological narrative:

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea”
    • with ten Kings (Council of Ministers)
    • Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation
    • Rebellion occurs
    • Opposition and exaltation
  • Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven'
    • He wages war against the Saints
    • We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
    • Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos.
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky'
  • The “one” removed from the midst
  • Armies surround Jerusalem
  • Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ
    • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever
    • Books are opened
    • Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath
    • Great Tribulation
  • Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
    • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
    • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
    • Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
      • The Last Trumpet Call of God

      • Dead in Christ are Resurrected

    • Son of Man coming on the clouds with the Saints
    • Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the earth
      • Those who are alive and are left
    • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
    • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
    • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
      • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire
  • Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord
    • Second Trumpet  - 1/3rd of sea to blood
    • Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter
    • Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck
    • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment
    • Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed
    • Seventh Trumpet
      • First Bowl - Sores on Man
      • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
      • Third Bowl - All water to blood
      • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
      • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
      • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon
        • Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss
        • The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven
        • Jesus and His army (144,000 go out to do battle
        • Two Witnesses arise
      • Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone:
        • end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator
        • Victory at Armageddon
        • anti-Christ and false prophet captured
        • Two Witnesses arise
        •  Earth changing earthquake
  • End of the one ‘seven
    • Beast of a Man thrown into Hell – done away with entirely
  • First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods)
  • Christ returns to Heaven
    • Satan imprisoned
    • Martyrs made alive
    • Rewarding the Saints
  • Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ
    • Saints rule the earth
  • Satan released at end of Millennium
    • Revolt of the nations / their destruction
  • Great White Throne Judgment

Paul's account fits into the mosaic with precision. Each part fits.  There are still more end-time linear narratives to match up – and the amazing aspect is that there are no conflicts with the overall sequence of events listed so far, nor with any others I can find.  Indeed, another aspect which incorporates nicely is Revelation chapter 12’s twin parallel accounts and the role of the Jews in all this harkening back to those in Judea from the Olivet Discourse.

I must admit that the one removed from the midst is subjectively placed. The removal of this blocking spirit by God may allow the rise of the (man) beast from the sea or it may allow some subsequent event like the Gog/Magog war. The sequence of 2nd Thessalonians only demands it happens before he is revealed, and that will come to all at the midpoint.  So all that can be said is that it comes before the midpoint abomination as well, but where exactly is my best guess.

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9 hours ago, inchrist said:

What OT scripture backing do you have the rolling of the sky is the sign of christ?

The sign most universally accepted as the sign of Christ is the cross. Any other sign would not be recognized by a majority of the world's people.

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14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ok so you identify the Philadelphia church as the wise virgin bride Rev 3:10 who has an open door given to her by God as per Matthew 25 the parable of the wise and foolish virgin brides.

Ah, no, I don't identify the Church of Philadelphia at all in the sequence of events presented so far, nor will I in this short version of only 38 or 39 or so pages in my word document.

2nd incorrect assumption you make: I never equate the Church of Philadelphia as the wise virgin bride [sic] in the parable of the ten virgins of Mt 25.

I disagree that Rev 3:10 equates to an "open door."  I have a paper on that, but that is not germane to this thread.

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14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Now if this is where Rosh Hashanah takes place when does the 10 days of awe take place in your analysis here and then preceeded by the day of atonement?

Paul said: 

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.  Col 2:16-17

Paul says the Festivals are a shadow of what is to come, not that Jesus go by them to the day.  The 5th Trumpet, 1st Woe alone takes five months.  The time it might take for all God's Wrath to be done, in my opinion, is over three years.

The sequence-of-events lays down no times or dates.  All it does is discern the order by how major, linear, end-time narratives give their particular events, and through comparison by specific and unique events, I can order them together in one outline form.

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14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Because accurding to scripture the church of Smyrna must go through 10 days of awe. That would be after the rapture. Remember the door isnt open to them. They are the foolish virgins.

The Bible does not say that that the 'door isn't open to them', nor does it say they go through God's Wrath.

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:  ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.  ‘Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.  Rev 2:8-10 NASB

It is the devil who casts some into prison.  That is oppression and tribulation is as persecution.

You are incorrect at labeling them as shut out; your application of the parable to the Churches misses the mark.

If they are faithful until death, they receive the Crown of Life.  Each Church has a future promise in Heaven.

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15 hours ago, inchrist said:

Further the scrolling of the sky is not the sign of Christ. 

Jewish tradition holds the biblical stand based on Genesis the rainbow is the sign of the coming messiah.

Jewish tradition is not God's Word.

According to Scripture, the rainbow is NOT the sign of the coming Messiah.

Genesis 9:13 (NKJV) 13 "I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.

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15 hours ago, inchrist said:

What OT scripture backing do you have the rolling of the sky is the sign of christ? 

There is a verse in Isaiah which mentions the scrolling of the sky, but you beg the question because there is no direct equation between the two.

Since between the sun/moon/star event and the gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse is the Sign of the Son of Man, and since between the sun/moon/star event and the arrival of the Great Multitude in Heaven is the scrolling of the sky with the sixth Seal of Revelation; I equate the two as one and the same - in my opinion.

I have to allow for an alternate scenario though: that the Scrolling of the Sky reveals the Sign, or vision, of Jesus coming down from Heaven.

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15 hours ago, inchrist said:

Further concerning the great multitude in heaven, Where is it reported this is the resurrection? The text simply states they "came out"...if one is killed in the name of christ, isnt he technically out of the tribulation? Unless being dead in christ you are still accounted for being in the tribulation?

You need everything spelled out?  Never does the Bible say the Great Multitude is the result of the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who are alive and remain.

As Paul taught that the Day of the Lord brought both the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ first, and then those will be alive and remain join them, and as, Jesus taught the Day of the Lord happens right after the Great Tribulation (and indeed, Jesus' arrival puts an end to that persecution); therefore, having just such a Great Multitude, from every walk of life ever, show up having done as we do - washing our sin away by Jesus' Atoning Sacrifice - and - to have them come out of the very time period Jesus said immediately precedes the very Day of the Lord shown to happen with the sixth Seal --- means these people ARE the Dead in Christ and the Elect.

At the time of the sixth Seal, the fifth Seal martrys are still under their glass ceiling awaiting the end of the one 'seven' and the final addition of their number: the Two Witnesses.

 

(By the way, gentle reader, have you too ever wondered where everyone got their palm frond?  I mean, there are a great many palm fronds too!)

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