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we have a much different perspective about pharisees than people in the 1st century would have had. 
we're like "
ah, pharisees, bad people, hypocrites" and we use the word in a derogatory sense. 

but in the 1st century, if you asked anybody who were the most generous, godly, righteous people in town, they would have pointed you to the pharisees. they were the 100% obedient, above-and-beyond keepers of the perfect law of God, who spent all day, every day, doing everything they could to be in complete compliance with all that is written in the word. 

if there was anyone who was holy, it was a pharisee. if there was anyone you could call a man of God, it was a pharisee. if you wanted to talk to someone who knew about the ways of the One true God, it would be a pharisee. if you wanted to hear the wisdom of God and right doctrine and the explanation of scripture, you'd go to a pharisee. 

so when we read "
your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees" -- it's lost on us. but to the people who heard Christ say this, it would have been an enormous shock. it would have made them think, "who then can be saved??" -- it would have seemed like it was hopeless. 
we almost get a sense of it when He says "
be perfect, as your Father is perfect" -- but a lot of us don't even get it then. a lot of us think "yeah i can be as perfect as God
. . . wow. 
do you really have that low of an opinion of the perfection of the Father? or that high of an opinion of yourself? 

when Christ, an unlearned son of a manual laborer from the backwaters of Galilee, stood up and opposed the pinnacle of human righteousness on the planet, and called them ignorant and wicked, it was a big deal
that's not going up to Benny Hinn and telling him he's a hypocrite. 
that's telling Mother Theresa her soul is black. 
that's telling Mahatma Ghandi he's a rabble-rouser. 
that's calling Winston Churchill a wuss or Chuck Norris a pansy. 
that's saying the Dalai Llama is a bully. 
that's saying Anonymous has sold out to 'the man.'

there's evidence of this in scripture, too -- when Paul is going down a list of reasons he could have boasted, or had confidence in himself, or what he might have put on a resume, in Philippians 3, he says he is a Benjamite - the one tribe who never intermarried with the pagan Canaanites - so, a '
Hebrew of Hebrews.' with the next breath, he says, "as for the Law, a pharisee"  -- no further explanation; no explanation is needed: a pharisee is the observer of the Law. 

there was absolutely no such thing as more perfect obedience to the law than to be a pharisee. 
but this is who Christ called children of the Devil, and of whom He says, our righteousness must exceed theirs, or we will never enter the Kingdom at all. 

that is what makes "
law-keeper" Christianity so pitiful, and what makes the grace of God and the gift of the righteousness of Christ by faith to all who trust in Him so extremely great and precious. 
because no one could be more obedient to the commandments than a pharisee: as far as the flesh is concerned, it is inconceivable to be more righteous than a pharisee. if you think you're doing great because you are keeping some commandments, and you go to church on sunday, maybe on wednesday too, or better yet - you go on satuday because, '
sabbath' and 'will think to change the times and seasons' -- it's highly likely that you're nothing next to them. an heathen by comparison.

i'm afraid we just don't have the right view of them, because we've all heard so much preaching about them as though they were hypocrites and liars. we just think of them like they're some sleazy tv preacher who looks good on camera & says all the right things with charisma, but is doing lines of coke with prostitutes in the back of his limo on monday morning. 
but that ain't the right picture.

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Just now, post said:

when Christ, an unlearned son of a manual laborer from the backwaters of Galilee, stood up and opposed the pinnacle of human righteousness on the planet, and called them ignorant and wicked, it was a big deal
that's not going up to Benny Hinn and telling him he's a hypocrite. 
that's telling Mother Theresa her soul is black. 
that's telling Mahatma Ghandi he's a rabble-rouser. 
that's calling Winston Churchill a wuss or Chuck Norris a pansy. 
that's saying the Dalai Llama is a bully. 
that's saying Anonymous has sold out to 'the man.'

the point being that Christ wasn't - as some people give the impression - just saying out loud what a lot of people were already thinking. 
it's not as though Jesus was calling Trump a liar or Clinton corrupt. He wasn't simply giving voice to what 'the enlightened' had already been secretly discussing. not just opposing the main-stream narrative, but crushing what everybody took for granted. 
Jesus was saying things that simply did not enter into the minds of people at all.


so when the scripture tells us that by faith, God clothes us with a righteousness that is greater than the pharisees, it is not just saying '
congrats, i pronounce you better than a sleazy hypocrite & liar' -- far more! 
the gift of God is fantastic and indescribable -- something to make us absolutely ecstatic about! 

i was dirt, nothing more than muck, lucky if i even had some moisture -- and He set me higher than all the angels, simply because i believe, and trust Him
i just can't even . . .

you know?? 

 



what God is this? what a God this is!!

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Guest shiloh357
7 minutes ago, post said:



i'm afraid we just don't have the right view of them, because we've all heard so much preaching about them as though they were hypocrites and liars. we just think of them like they're some sleazy tv preacher who looks good on camera & says all the right things with charisma, but is doing lines of coke with prostitutes in the back of his limo on monday morning. 
but that ain't the right picture.

Well, you have Jesus to thank for that, because our view of the Pharisees is based on what HE said.   The Pharisees were guilty of creating artificial loopholes for themselves as ways of getting around the law.    They were guilty of frivolous divorces whenever they saw a younger woman they liked better.   Jesus said they were hypocrites and he knew them the best.   He saw what no one else saw.   They were law breakers, not law keepers.  Jesus said that they were going to hell and that they made their disciples twice the sons of hell as they were.   Jesus assessment was pretty bad. 

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41 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Well, you have Jesus to thank for that, because . . 


maybe you haven't finished reading, or maybe you posted before you thought about it. 
 

50 minutes ago, post said:

the point being that Christ wasn't - as some people give the impression - just saying out loud what a lot of people were already thinking. 
it's not as though Jesus was calling Trump a liar or Clinton corrupt. He wasn't simply giving voice to what 'the enlightened' had already been secretly discussing. not just opposing the main-stream narrative, but crushing what everybody took for granted. 
Jesus was saying things that simply did not enter into the minds of people at all.


Paul - who is fully aware of what Christ teaches - lists being a pharisee as a thing he had reason to boast in. and he doesn't feel it necessary to explain why this is a reason to boast. 
that is not the perception we have today. 

in 1st century Judea, you could have opened up a school and called it "
Pharisetical School of . . .
and you wouldn't need to hang another sign in the front yard explaining it. everyone would know that this was claiming to be a righteous, disciplined, holy & obedient, law-abiding institution.

but in the 21st century, open up a school and call it "
Pharisetical School of . . .
well. guess what people will assume. 

so without this understanding, we're missing the gravity of what Christ is doing and saying when He taught.
this would be like arriving on the scene & calling Shiloh a wicked hypocrite & a fool who can't think clearly ((because we all clearly understand that Shiloh is actually righteous & sincere, and that there is no flaw in his mind)).
what Christ is doing here is blowing everyone's minds -- i don't think that's something that we generally appreciate when we read the gospels, because we have this preconception that the pharisees were a transparently corrupt group of people that only the simple would think are actually good. 
no! 
quite the opposite -- these are the people who everyone admired & respected.
the dr. Charles Stanleys, the John MacArthurs, the Spurgeons, the D.L. Moodys, the Tyndales, the Wycliffs, the Martin Luthers of their day. the shiloh357s and the Georges and the FresnoJoes. 

 

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Guest Robert

Paul also says he counts it a "a loss" and "as rubbish"for the cause of Christ:

" Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." (Philippians 3:1-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

As we see here, Paul regarded being a Pharisee as "rubbish" when it came to Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ regarded the ways of the Pharisees with some contempt at the way they conducted themselves.

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28 minutes ago, Yowm said:

. . you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful . . 
 

did y'all catch that? 

Christ said they are like things which
outwardly appear beautiful

not ugly. not obviously rotten to the core. beautiful. 

the outside of the cup is clean -- spotless.


 

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2 hours ago, post said:

i'm afraid we just don't have the right view of them, because we've all heard so much preaching about them as though they were hypocrites and liars.

Well we have to accept Christ's view of the Pharisees as authoritative.  Here's what He said (Matthew 23:13-38):

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier mattersof the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under herwings, and ye would not!

38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

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y'all don't seem to be apprehending what i'm saying. 

Christ speaks the truth, Amen!

but maybe we do not appreciate how radical it is.

when Paul says all these things are like refuse to him now, that's also an incredibly radical statement. 

what do y'all think, post is unaware of the scripture? doesn't the OP quote from and allude to the very same ones you're trying to point out to me? 

 

thank-you, all the same. ^_^

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phone autocorrected stuff :p
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Guest shiloh357
6 hours ago, post said:


maybe you haven't finished reading, or maybe you posted before you thought about it. 
 


Paul - who is fully aware of what Christ teaches - lists being a pharisee as a thing he had reason to boast in. and he doesn't feel it necessary to explain why this is a reason to boast. 
that is not the perception we have today. 

in 1st century Judea, you could have opened up a school and called it "
Pharisetical School of . . .
and you wouldn't need to hang another sign in the front yard explaining it. everyone would know that this was claiming to be a righteous, disciplined, holy & obedient, law-abiding institution.

but in the 21st century, open up a school and call it "
Pharisetical School of . . .
well. guess what people will assume. 

so without this understanding, we're missing the gravity of what Christ is doing and saying when He taught.
this would be like arriving on the scene & calling Shiloh a wicked hypocrite & a fool who can't think clearly ((because we all clearly understand that Shiloh is actually righteous & sincere, and that there is no flaw in his mind)).
what Christ is doing here is blowing everyone's minds -- i don't think that's something that we generally appreciate when we read the gospels, because we have this preconception that the pharisees were a transparently corrupt group of people that only the simple would think are actually good. 
no! 
quite the opposite -- these are the people who everyone admired & respected.
the dr. Charles Stanleys, the John MacArthurs, the Spurgeons, the D.L. Moodys, the Tyndales, the Wycliffs, the Martin Luthers of their day. the shiloh357s and the Georges and the FresnoJoes. 

 

How, specifically, do you know what the people thought or knew about the Pharisees?  How do you know that the people didn't see through the Pharisees' fraudulent façade?  You seem to be assigning a lot of ignorance to them, as if they were just a bunch of hapless rubes.

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Pharisees were not truly onservant according to Jesus.  They merely had the outward appearance.  Jesus said the said but dod not do.  Sad but true.

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