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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

How, specifically, do you know what the people thought or knew about the Pharisees?  How do you know that the people didn't see through the Pharisees' fraudulent façade?  You seem to be assigning a lot of ignorance to them, as if they were just a bunch of hapless rubes.

the Bible itself shows that they, together with the Sadducees ((who we also tend to imagine were transparently wicked)) were the leading authorities in the religious life of Israel. they controlled the Sanhedrin. as i've pointed out more than once, Paul points to his association with them as a thing to be proud of. this is who Paul is referring to in Romans 10, when he says he can testify that they are zealous for God, but without knowledge ((seeking to establish their own righteousness rather than to submit to God's, which they were ignorant of)). Christ rebukes them for being not strict enough in their observance of the Law, but He also instructs people to obey them because they sit in the seat of Moses. they were able to stir the people against Him, even to the point of having Barabbas released & Jesus crucified.

extra-Biblical sources support what i'm saying here, too - probably the biggest example being the writings of the historian Josephus ((also probably the most significant extra-Biblical source that confirms the historicity of Jesus Himself)), who claimed to be a pharisee himself ((though scholars today are skeptical that this is true -- and suspect that Josephus made this claim just to glorify himself -- which also in itself shows that historically, to be a pharisee was widely regarded as a respectable thing)) 

here's some reading material ((with references)) for you in that regard ((quoted from
here))


In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus claimed the Pharisees had great power over the multitude and “that when they say anything against the king or high priest they are presently believed.”[6] What is more, Josephus maintained that the Pharisees’ profession was to be righteous and please God.[7] Moreover, Josephus said that the Pharisees lived meanly and despised delicates in diet.[8] Also, Josephus asserted that they followed conduct of reason.[9] Also, Josephus argued that the Pharisees honored the elderly and never tried to contradict them and never question them ever.[10] As far as the doctrines of the Pharisees, Josephus stated that they had a deterministic view but more compatible with “fate” determinism.[11] However, Josephus also claimed that the Pharisees had a syncretistic view of man’s action with “fate” because he wrote that the Pharisees, “say that some actions, but not all, are the work of fate, and some of them are in our own power, and that they are liable to fate but not caused by fate.”[12] Josephus alleged that the Pharisees feared God and are weary to take away the freedom of men.[13] They performed divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices.[14] Josephus said that they exhibited virtuous conduct in the action of their lives and their discussions.[15] Apparently, the Sadducees put up with the Pharisees because they feared the populous who supported the Pharisees.[16] During the reign of the Hasmonean ruler Hyrcanus, Josephus discussed the relationship between the Pharisees and the Sadducees when he wrote the following:

The Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the Law of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances … which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers…. But the Pharisees have the multitude of their side.[17]

According to Josephus, the Pharisees were insubordinate to ruling authorities because they refused oaths of allegiance to Caesar and Herod and some were put to death.[18] Hyrcanus left the Pharisees because their form of punishment was too light for his liking toward one of his enemies.[19]

In The Wars of the Jews, Josephus claimed that the Pharisees valued themselves highly upon the exact skill they had in the law of their fathers.[20] The Pharisees made men believe that they were favored by God.[21] Josephus said that during the nine year reign of Alexandra the Pharisees were the real rulers of the nation. The Pharisees joined Alexandra to assist her in government, appeared more religious than other Jews, interpreted the Law more accurately, and “artfully insinuated” themselves in Alexandra’s favor.[22] What is more, they bound and loosed men at their pleasure in authority.[23] Josephus said that Alexandra “governed other people, the Pharisees governed her.”[24] The Pharisees took revenge on a man Diogenes and all those who assisted Alexandra’s husband when he crucified eight hundred Pharisees.[25]

At this point it should be noted that there was a period of time during the Hasmonean Dynasty that the Pharisees underwent a hostile interval of oppression by the Hasmoneans. It began under the reign of John Hyrcanus who originally joined the Pharisees. However, a member of their group made a slanderous comment that Hyrcanus should quit the priesthood because his mother had conceived him in prison out of wedlock. Because of this Hyrcanus left the Pharisees to join the Sadducees.[26] During the reign of Alexander Janneus who ruled the Hasmonean Dynasty from 103 – 76 B.C. he crucified 800 Pharisees and had their children’s throats cut before their eyes.[27] It was when Alexander Janneus was on his death bed that he felt remorse for what he had done and instructed his wife Alexandra (she inherited the kingdom as his successor) to make amends with the Pharisees. She did reconcile with the Pharisees and it is during her reign that the Pharisees rose to power.[28]

To end, Josephus’ picture of the Pharisees is more of a positive description. He portrays the Pharisees as a pious Jewish sect with integrity, a zeal to honor God and protector of the common people of their own ethnicity.

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3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

How, specifically, do you know what the people thought or knew about the Pharisees?  How do you know that the people didn't see through the Pharisees' fraudulent façade?  You seem to be assigning a lot of ignorance to them, as if they were just a bunch of hapless rubes.


i am not in the slightest bit disputing a single thing that Christ says about them. 

what i mean to convey is the significance of what Christ is saying -- because the gospels are for the most part the only source of information we have about these people, and we believe Jesus, so in our minds we make the assumption that this is how everyone thought about them, and that Jesus was just giving voice to popular opinion. we kind of assume that well Jesus is just saying what would be on FOX News or something. 
but think about that assumption for just a second -- if everyone was already thinking this about the pharisees, how did they have such power? why weren't they out trying to murder 3/4 of the population of Judea if 3/4 of the population already had the same opinion of them? and why would the gospels bother to include such lengthy diatribes against them, if Jesus was just reiterating common knowledge? 

but if we recognize that both the pharisees and the sadducees were highly respected sects, the leaders of the people that the Bible describes them as ((e.g. John 3:10 - Jesus, stating the obvious, says that Nicodemus, a pharisee, is "
a master of Israel")), then the message of Christ is a radical thing - He's not just calling out someone like Jim Jones or abortion clinic bombers or Westboro Baptist -- He's calling out Billy Graham & dr James Dobson. 

because here's the thing about pharisees: 
they are beautiful on the outside. they outwardly seem like they are holy and righteous. they are obedient to the commands and justify all they do through scripture. they add things to the Law, but they do so with logic & reasoning based on the Law ((with subtly wrong thinking)). 
when the scripture says "
beware the leaven of the pharisees" it's not because "yeah, thanks Captain Obvious" -- it's because they are very appealing. it seems like the right thing to do. it looks for all the world like it's righteousness. but it's the inside ((the part you can't see just by looking at it)) that is full of dead men's bones. we need to be wary because we could easily be fooled. 

i just want to convey to everyone, that just like the pharisees & the sadducees, who we tend to think of as transparently evil, but who are really the people who are deceptively religious & observant, the same is true of false teachers. we are likewise told to beware such things - not because they are obvious and it's really a non-issue, like a command to not stick your hand in the vat of acid or don't pick up a running chainsaw by the wrong end -- but because they are attractive, deceptive, and not quickly & easily discerned as false. 

it isn't the obvious things that we need to "beware" of. it's the subtle errors, the ones that would "
deceive the very elect, as though it were possible" -- and that's what the pharisees & sadducees & false teachers actually represent. the Judaizers & "Legalists" et al -- things that we would miss, if we are not vigilant. 

that's all. 
seriously, i am not trying to contradict Christ in the smallest sense at all! 
but helping us have some perspective on what He is saying to us: that it is a much more significant thing that maybe we give Him credit for ((
because as for myself, i certainly spent much of my life thinking about this the wrong way -- that Christ was just stating the obvious. He was not. He was revealing the truth that was hidden)) 

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it's significant too, that we shouldn't lump all the pharisees together and condemn them in toto

the gospels relate that many of them believed, but were afraid to speak up about it. and others withheld condemnation and reasonably said, if Jesus is from God, then what He is doing will not pass away - but if his works are from men, they will not last, so they should wait ((re: Acts 5:33-40)). we have the examples of Nicodemus & Joseph of Arimathea & after his conversion, Saul / Paul. 

our ((my)) human tendency is to try to neatly separate things and people into groups and call them black & white, good & evil, hero & villain. but reality is that it is not so simple, and that real things & real people leak over sharp boundaries & defy such simple categorization. 

for sure, there is one razor-thin dividing line: do you believe that Christ is the Son of God, made flesh and come to us from heaven, born of a virgin and going forth to offer Himself as an atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world, crucified and risen the third day, taken up to heaven again to prepare a place and to return to judge the quick & the dead? that's a high-contrast zone of delineation. but an idea that is right or wrong? a person who is right or wrong? typically, there is some truth, and some error in all of this. the same with the pharisees ((& sadducees, though we know less of them)). we shouldn't write them all off -- just like we shouldn't write off all catholics, charismatics, _______________ ((fill in the blank)). 

 . . but let's all pray earnestly, asking God for discernment, understanding and wisdom, so that we do not make fools of ourselves and bring dishonor to His name, but reflect His glory and perfect truth -- for the sake of His name, because He is the Truth!

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