The Last Trumpet is not the 7th Trumpet

[missmuffet]

Question: "Is the last trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4 the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation?"

Answer: Those who hold to a midtribulation rapture teach that the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 and the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are identical. Those who teach a pretribulation rapture identify them as separate events. What difference does it make, and how can we know the truth?

Why does it matter whether or not the trumpets are the same? God has given us His Word as the revelation of His plan of redemption, and that plan covers everything from creation to the new creation. Deuteronomy 29:29 says, “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.” There are many things that God has chosen to reveal to us, and it is important for us to understand them so that we can obey Him. We don’t always understand why He does things, but we are called to trust Him for the parts we don’t understand and to study to understand the rest. As we look at the texts about these trumpets, it becomes clear that they are part of a chronology that God has given us of events in the last days. Whether or not we are still living when those events come to pass, they involve us, so we ought to know what God has revealed to us.

The book of Revelation has sometimes been viewed as a book of mystery, yet the title itself implies something brought out of hiding. More specifically, it is “the revelation of Jesus Christ . . . to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass” (Revelation 1:1). God wants us to know what is going to happen, so we can be prepared, and to help us in calling others to repentance. Beginning in chapter 6, we are given a chronological record of things that will happen in the last days. There is a series of seven seals, then a series of seven trumpets, then a series of seven bowls of wrath. We read in Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.’” In the context, this seems to come around the middle of the tribulation period.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is writing to believers concerning the transition from this life to eternal life. Our mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal, incorruptible bodies, prepared for the eternal kingdom of God. Verse 52 says, “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Paul addresses the same subject to the Thessalonians, and specifically connects it with the Second Coming of Christ. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

There is no question that God has revealed these things to us and that He intends for us to be encouraged and instructed by them. The question is whether these trumpets are the same. If they are the same, then the rapture of the church happens in the middle of the tribulation period, and saints need to be prepared to endure those trials. If they are not the same, then we need to know when the last trump will sound, so that we can be prepared for it. In order to find out whether they are the same, we can compare the events they are associated with.

http://www.gotquestions.org/last-trumpet.html

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

According toyou but not to scripture, pray tell which god did Jericho worship? what was his name? why could the Jews only enter the promise land ONLY when the walls of Jericho was smashed, and why is it we find a prostitute sealed in Jericho as well as 7 trumpets 

What I find interesting about Jericho is how that week of siege unfolded much like the seals; where seven is contained within the seventh.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1. Paul never said HE went to Heaven.  He wrote that he knew of a man who did to go to the third Heaven.  Now as Paul was just writing in the context of that statement that he would not brag of himself - it sure is unlikely that he is talking like Bob Dole of himself in the third person.  We know John did go the third Heaven of the Father's presence, and Paul and John were contemporaries of each other.  They also wrote music for the Beatles to use your illogic.

2. While I am not saying that the earth does not formally become under the rule of the Kingdom of God with the seventh Trumpet's conclusion with the seventh Bowl - at no time does the Bible indicate that the unknown Day of the Lord is on the last day of the one 'seven'.  That is an internal Scriptural inconsistency of "last day" Post-Trib: Jesus said that even He didn't know the day the Day of the Lord would come.  "Last day" adherents contradict what the Lord said.

Anyway, I noticed a distinct lack of direct criticism of the logical Scriptural trail I blazed.  Absent any real work on your behalf, I'll just chalk your post up to tilting at windmills.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Well, i actually gave you criticism and gave you examples of elements you doctrine does not address. 

You have not. 

You have not directly addressed the original post's hypothesis.

Instead, you have polluted this thread with an attempt to smash discourse about any eschatology that disagrees with your own.

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Surely you should be addressing them?

I do not have to address your non-sequiturs.  You have to stay on topic.  Address the OP or start your own thread with your tripe.  And don't call me Shirley.

[Serving]

It's really simple .. 

The last trump is obviously the 7th trump.

The 7 trumpets are the only culmination of sequenced trumps we are given in the scriptures being directly related to the last days wrath of God, with the 7th trump being the last of that sequence.

And if the 7th trump signifies the ending of God's cumulative wrath, then by natural recourse, ONLY the 7th trump meets the requirement of "last trump" ..

.. WHY? .. 

Simple .. it can not be speaking of the feast trumpets or any other trumpets because out of all possible trumpet blasts one can think of, it is ONLY the 7 trumpets sequence that HAVE AN END .. other trumpets WILL be blown during the millennium signifying events, so HOW can those trumps be called LAST trump if they are to be blown AGAIN?? OBVIOUSLY, they can NOT be the last trump if they are blown AGAIN after Christ's return now can they !!!!  .. ONLY the 7th trump meets the definition of "last trump" simply because those 7 trumps will NEVER be blown again.

Simple, scriptural, logical.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

15 hours ago, Serving said:

It's really simple .. 

The last trump is obviously the 7th trump.

Too simple: you did not address the original post which logically, and progressively, links Scripture to Scripture from the initial point in 1st Corinthians, to 2nd Thessalonians, to the Olivet Discourse, and ultimately to the broad overview of the end-times in Revelations Seal/Scroll account of chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) so as to show the result of the Harvest appears in Heaven before the Father -- before even the first numbered Trumpet of God's Wrath is blown.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

There are three Trumpets of God, and blown by Him.

The First Trumpet, associated with the Festival of Firstfruits.

The Last Trumpet, associated with the Festival of Trumpets, and - 

The Great Trumpet, associated with Yom Kippur.

In the pattern of God's Trumpets, even the Last Trumpet is not last.

And the wisdom of God is as foolishness in the eyes of man.  1Co 1:25

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On July 27, 2016 at 1:56 PM, inchrist said:

No but John is repeating what Paul and Daniel also saw and were taught when they were taken to Heaven.

 

Prewrath rapture doctrine is like that of pre trib rapture doctrine, they are both in error.

 

Go back to the 7 churches of Revelation, and you will find 5 of those churches were rebuked for their lack of good works and their tolerance of false doctrines and pagan idolatry.

 

2 of those 7 churches were found to be virgins, why virgins because they were commended for their good works (observing God’s commandments), they are the only 2 churches who are not rebuked, because their faith is that of a virgin.

 

1 of those 2 virgin churches does not deny Christ Name, that church is Philadelphia.

 

Here are two virgin Churches Philadelphia and Smyrna.

 

Philadelphia is given an open door to escape whereas Smyrna faces 10 days of tribulation, this is very important information scripture gives us.

 

Did you know that the 10 Days of Tribulation for Smyrna Means “Awe” in Hebrew? Hebrew word for “awe” means: “tribulation, trouble”. So in other words 10 days of tribulation is actually in Hebrew called 10 days of “Awe”.

 

That’s very interesting because between Rosh Hashanah (the feast of trumpets) to Yowm Kippur ( Day of atonement) you have 10 days of awe (tribulation).

 

Yowm kippur in Revelation would fall on the day of Armageddon, why do I say that? Zech 12 &13 gives are great graphic illustration of Armageddon and Yowm Kippur.

 

10 days prior to Yowm Kippur is Rosh Hashanah being the feast of trumpets and also being the last trumpet of the 7 month long Mosaic feasts.

 

Turn to Revelation 11:19 at the 7^th trumpet Then the temple of God in heaven was opened.

 

I’snt the church of Philadelphia given an open door?

 

Now before God pours out his bowls of wrath, heaven is then shut again.

 

Rev 15:7 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

 

Let’s go back to the 2 virgin churches, and turn our attention the foolish and wise virgin’s parable.

 

Matthew 25 we find the one group of 5 virgin brides is given an open door, because they kept their commandments, the kept the name of Christ and they were also ready for Christ. This is the church of Philadelphia.

 

The foolish brides though they kept the commandments didn’t know Christ, they weren’t ready for Christ and the door was shut to them. This is the church of Smyrna. They are actually a perfect representation of the Jewish people. The Jewish people are the foolish virgin, there will be no doubt Jews who follow the commandment of God but yet do not know Christ, these Jews will denounce the mark of the beast and any part to do with the beast, this is the Church Smyrna.

 

Then in Rev 19 we see heaven is open again, to destroy God’s enemies but to also atone the Jews as they finally recognise Christ. Then Christ will proceed to then also marry the Jews. This is based on Twin Goats for Two Brides and Jacob marrying Leigh then Rachel.

 

Then 5 days later on Sukkot, there will be one big wedding reception, for both brides will then be only one bride!

 

Further in Jewish wedding traditions, the groom appoints two witnesses to escort the bride and the groom to the wedding ceremony.

 

We also find two witnesses needed to actually declare Rosh Hashanah which is the 7^th last trumpet of the 7 month long Mosaic Feasts, interestingly we find 2 witnesses before the 7^th trumpet in Revelations.

 

2 spies in the battle of Jericho who escorts Rahab the prostitute and her family out of Jericho on the 7^th trumpet being the last trumpet in the 7 trumpet series.

 

2 angels escorts Lot out of Sodom.

 

7^th trumpet in Revelation 11:17 it is declared for God to judge the dead and reward his servants and destroy his enemies.

 

7th trumpet of Revelation declares that the kingdom of the world has NOW become the kingdom of Christ.

 

7th trumpet of Jericho, the kingdom of Baal is smashed and became the kingdom of the Israelites into the promised land.

 

Be warned of the false doctrine of Prewrath:

 

The prewrath rapture doctrine lacks the 2 witnesses needed to escort Christ’s Bride, which is a common element in the wedding ceremony of Christ and His Bride, it is also a common element in the enterty of Scripture where we actually have 7 trumpets in bringing down the kingdom of Baal in Jericho and to that of the kingdom of Baal in Revelation, it lacks an actual literal resurrection, it lacks full understanding of God’s HOLY Feasts. These Holy feasts are a wedding rehearsal. It lacks a full understanding of Christs parables but most damning of all it lacks the complete understanding of the Mystery of God to be completed on the 7th trumpet.

 

This is your first big post in which you attack my position.

You did not quote the original post at all.

You brought up a lot of ancillary stuff which is not at all germane to the argument I put forth.

You did not make any real correction, instead you went off on how Pre-Wrath is wrong; the seven Churches; the Festivals; the parable of the ten virgins; back to the Festivals, and ending with a warning about Pre-Wrath on your never-ending Jihad against eschatologies that disagree with your own.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

If you can not link the fall feasts with the rest of the wedding and with the parable of the two virgin brides with coming Messiah and who they are, who sends two witnesses to escort the bride in the resurrection, just like the prophetic templates of Lot, Jericho and the two witnesses for Rosh Hashanah, then my guy I cant help you, but dont come here claiming that your doctrine is logically scriptual with an incomplete presentation or an attempted notion of what the 7th trumpet rapture presents.

Red herring there buddy-ro.

I'm not quite sure you can understand this.  1.) 1Co 15:51-52. Paul connects the Last Trumpet to the Rapture.  2.) 2Th 4:16-17. Previously to that in another letter to the Thessalonians, he connects the Rapture to Jesus' coming on the clouds.  3.) Mt 24:29-31. Jesus sequences the sun/moon/star event, the same coming on the clouds, and the gathering of the Elect, i.e., the Rapture.   4.) Rev 6:12-14. Jesus reveals to John that the sixth Seal unleashes the Day of the Lord's sun/moon/star event - followed by the arrival of the Great Multitude in Heaven, who come out of the very same Great Tribulation which is ended by Jesus' parousia.  The proof then, is that the Last Trumpet of God, calling us home, comes before any of the numbered Trumpets blown by Angels announcing God's Wrath.

That is the topic.

The topic is not your weird combination of the Returning Anew, the marriage ceremony, and a parable about the ten virgins.  Let me tell you this: I DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY IN YOUR SANDBOX IN ORDER TO MAKE MY POINT.  I DO NOT HAVE TO LINK YOUR VARIOUS ASPECTS WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND - WHICH IS A SCRIPTURAL LINKAGE SHOWING THE "LAST TRUMPET" CALLING US HOME IS NOT THE 7th TRUMPET OF GOD'S WRATH.

Now you say you aren't interested in what I think is important.  I say not only aren't you interested in talking about the things I bring to the table, you are only interested in making a mockery of anything that goes against your eschatology and are attempting to tear it down and destroy it.  Sorry Charlie, you keep coming up short on that account, and I keep picking your posts apart because they have so much error in them that there's plenty to point out.

Jump down the rabbit hole with you and hug your tar baby just so you will be "pleasant" with me?  HA!  Do you really think you can make me do anything on the basis that I want pleasantry from a person who seeks to destroy?  Can you really be serious with this veiled threat of blackmail?  "Pay me the honor of discussing my off-topic, unrelated things so your thread melts away, or I won't be pleasant to you."  Shirley, you can't be serious.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

How to form an inaccurate, incomplete, and totally wrong connection in Scripture: the word test.  Take one word and connect dots that aren't even on the paper!

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3New International Version (NIV)

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

How is it you see the parable of the wise and foolish virgins irrelevant to our debate?

So we go from a pregnant woman to ten virgins ...because - they're both women!

Never mind that one is married and used in analogy for pain and suffering, and the others have both figurative and literal applications from a parable about faithfulness.

These two subjects are about as connected as dried fruit and the atmosphere of Mars are connected by their lack of moisture.

But!  If you "see" how they are the same.. Well!  It's off to the races we go - jump down the rabbit hole.

And again, although inchrist doesn't get it, this has nothing to do with the Scriptural proof offered in the OP.