The Last Trumpet is not the 7th Trumpet

[Marcus O'Reillius]

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Does the lord not come like a thief in the night for his bride?
Does the Parable of the wise and foolish bride not indicate this concept?
If it indicates this concept of the day of the lord, how can you deem it as off topic, given the fact there are clues given to us?
How can you deem the fall feasts which is part of the wedding rehearsel for his bride off topic? 
All are pieces to the puzzle and if a number of pieces are missing, how can you claim what you present is logically scriptural?
According to jewish weddings two witnesses are needed to escort the bride to the groom. Why do we have this same feature found in Revelations if this is deemed irrelavent to you?
How many questions can I ask?
If I keep asking meaningless rabbit hole questions, can I steer my opponent off track?
Is there any rhyme or reason in all this?
Did God really divorce the Jews?
Why is that not pertinent to this topic?

Taking "begging the question" to new lows...

Never mind that the five foolish virgins, nor the five wise virgins (not the foolish or wise virgin singular) have any place in the book of Revelation nor are they germane to topic at hand at all: the Festivals also have no expounded role in the end-time narratives in the text - they simply are not cited either.

Now it is an assumption of some that the Festivals play no part in the end-times whatsoever, however, they can be shown to have in general, the same sequence order as Pre-Wrath where the Church is called home with the Last Trumpet of Rosh ha-Shannah; God's Wrath follows weeding out the tares; and then the Atonement between Jesus and the Remnant Jews follows.

But the whole subject comparison of the Day of the Lord to Rosh ha-Shannah, while legitimate in its own right; has no place in this discussion of the Trumpets setting the Last Trumpet apart from the seventh Trumpet by the Word in Scripture.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

THIS MEANS THAT and THAT MEANS THIS.

This is the fallacy in argument on several different levels.
Fundamentally, its purpose is to allow the debater to completely change word and passage meaning.

15 hours ago, inchrist said:

the church of Philadelphia shows herself to be the wise virgin with the promise of an open door to escape.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, That is an open door, which is only promised to the church of Philadelphia and can only been seen in the 7th trumpet.

The foolish virgin the church of Smyrna has to go through 10 days of awe. [sic - Scripture does not say "of awe"]

So its very simple.... 7th trumpet of Rev is Rosh hashanah as the last trumpet for the wise bride Philadelphia, the temple door is open.

The people of the great multitude come out of the Great Tribulation one-by-one through death, not all at once as in the Rapture of the Church.

It's all so very simple.  One just says: "this is that," and voila!  It is!

No real proof, just a compilation of fallacies not logically connected.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

15 hours ago, inchrist said:

Further where exactly does it say the temple is open in Revelation 6:12-14 compared to Rev 11:19?
Again you have no escort for the bride to meet the groom.
You can not indicate at all when the foolish bride has her 10 days of awe in your timeline.

These are all non-sequiturs - they literally do not follow, anything - not even each other.

The Temple, in which the Great Multitude appear, has nothing to do with the timing of the named, Last Trumpet blown by God to assemble His people - and the numbered Trumpets blown by Angels to announce another measure of His Wrath.

There is nothing about the host of Angels participating in the Harvest who follow the Groom in the wedding analogy as Jesus commands them - which has anything to do with whether or not the Last Trumpet is the same as the seventh Trumpet.

And in a completely erroneous fashion, a wholly made-up bit of fiction ricocheting inside a person's head that escaped, has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Last Trumpet is the same as the seventh Trumpet.  

 

[seeking the lost]

On 7/25/2016 at 8:40 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

It happens on:

 

The Day of the Lord

 

It happens before:

 

1. Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet

    

2. The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time)

    

3. The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.

    

 

 

My question for you is related to the timing of the rapture.  Where do you find the resurrection that must precede the rapture .  John in the book of Revelation places the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation.  Revelation 20

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

Is it OK to add a resurrection?  Or is it OK to shift the time of that resurrection?  I am thinking that there might be consequences for that.  Revelation 22:17-19

¹⁷ And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. ¹⁸ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:¹⁹ and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

My question for you is related to the timing of the rapture.  Where do you find the resurrection that must precede the rapture .  John in the book of Revelation places the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation.  Revelation 20

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

Is it OK to add a resurrection?  Or is it OK to shift the time of that resurrection?  I am thinking that there might be consequences for that.  Revelation 22:17-19

¹⁷ And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. ¹⁸ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:¹⁹ and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I find that the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ precedes the Rapture in 1Th 4:16-17.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [fn]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Now as to your perspective, I can see where you're coming from, and yet I do not violate the rule of adding or subtracting, for what you call the Rapture, I call the bringing forth of the fifth Seal martyrs when their number is complete.  The last to do that, are the Two Witnesses who rise at the end of the one 'seven'.

Rev 20:4 marks the first time John sees the complete assembly of the Elect: the 144,000, the Great Multitude (which includes the Dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain when Jesus comes) and finally, the Martyrs.

If you read my thread on the Sequence-of-Events, I place the Ressurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture as happening on the Day of the Lord.  I sequence the Day of the Lord to after the midpoint abomination of Rev 13:14-15, and the shortened Great Trivulation as occurring coincidentally with the sixth Seal, producing the Great Multitude.  When the Great Multitude show up in Heaven - out of the Great Tribulation - the fifth Seal Martyrs still await the completion of their number.

After the seventh Seal is broken, then the Wrath of God goes forth, and the 1st Trumpet supplies the Fire and the Blood for the Day of the Lord's Wrath.  Another portion of the book of Revelation, in the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16, occurs in likewise fashion: Rescue-then-Wrath.  The Harvest comes with Rev 14:14-16, and the Wrath of God follows for the Day of the Lord in Rev 14:17-19 with -- two Angels, one who is in charge of the Fire, and another who helps supply the Blood.

In chapter 19 of Revelation, John hears the Great Multitude cheering on our Champion: Christ Jesus.  They are already in Heaven, yet at that point, before the final battle, the fifth Seal martyrs still await the completion of their number.  That follows the capture of the anti-Christ when the Two Witnesses are caught up, and the one 'seven' ends with the Great Earthquake.

[seeking the lost]

On 8/11/2016 at 10:13 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Now as to your perspective, I can see where you're coming from, and yet I do not violate the rule of adding or subtracting, for what you call the Rapture, I call the bringing forth of the fifth Seal martyrs when their number is complete.  The last to do that, are the Two Witnesses who rise at the end of the one 'seven'.

This the, Two Witness, seems to be smoke covering the target.   John in the writing is aware of these and yet he does not refer to this as a resurrection.   The first resurrection is a closed set at a fixed time and is not moveable nor is it all inclusive.

 

On 8/11/2016 at 10:13 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

If you read my thread on the Sequence-of-Events, I place the Ressurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture as happening on the Day of the Lord.  I sequence the Day of the Lord to after the midpoint abomination of Rev 13:14-15, and the shortened Great Trivulation as occurring coincidentally with the sixth Seal, producing the Great Multitude.  When the Great Multitude show up in Heaven - out of the Great Tribulation - the fifth Seal Martyrs still await the completion of their number.

The early out is not necessary for Saints to not experience wrath.  Consider the words from Ezekiel 9.

Ezekiel 9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. ² And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. ³ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer’s inkhorn by his side; ⁴ and the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

⁵ And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: ⁶ slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. ⁷ And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

⁸ And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?⁹ Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not. ¹⁰ And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. ¹¹ And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

In the Revelation there is a marking that happens in the same way with a command not to harm.

Revelation 7Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. ² And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, ³ saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The suffering that will come will be great.  The wrath of God will not come upon those who are marked with the seal of God.  They might experience the rage of Satan.  It is a point not to confuse the two.  Christians are not exempt from suffering nor are they exempt from martyrdom.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

12 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

This the, Two Witness, seems to be smoke covering the target.   John in the writing is aware of these and yet he does not refer to this as a resurrection.   The first resurrection is a closed set at a fixed time and is not moveable nor is it all inclusive.

The Two Witnesses are not "smoke covering the target."
They are the completion of the fifth Seal Martyrs.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

John does not call this the First Resurrection because it is not the First Resurrection; it is the gathering of the Two Witnesses.
This is the miraculous revival of two dead bodies, decaying for three days, which scares every one who watches it in horror.

At the point when the Two Witnesses are called up from the earth - the fifth Seal Martyrs STILL are not complete in number because the Two Witnesses have not yet arrived.
At this point - the two are still going up to Heaven in a cloud.  That's where John leaves the scene.

So no declaration of the First Resurrection is made because the fifth Seal Martyrs have not yet been made alive.

The First Resurrection is not complete and is not an accomplished fact until the entire body of the fifth Seal Martyrs are made alive - and that doesn't happen until after the one 'seven' is completed, and not only that, Satan is bound as well!

The First Resurrection includes:

• The 24 Elders - who follow Jesus in his train when He ascended to Heaven right after He met Mary in the garden.
• The 144,000 - who follow Jesus wherever He goes once He comes back.  (Sixth Seal).
• The Dead in Christ - who are raised from Paradise on the Day of the Lord.  (Sixth Seal)
• The Elect on the earth - who are gathered up on the Day of the Lord.  (Sixth Seal)
• The Martyrs - who hold a special place near the third Heaven with a glass ceiling. (Fifth Seal)
• The Two Witnesses - who complete the number of the Martyrs at the end of the one 'seven'.

And this is not accomplished in its entirety until after the one 'seven' when God makes the fifth Seal Martyrs "alive" in new imperishable, and immortal bodies.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

13 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Ezekiel 9

Revelation 7

I would put the order as Revelation 7:1-8 as happening on the Day of the Lord, after Jesus touches down, splitting the Mount of Olives in two.

1. Only after the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ-
2. And after the Rapture of the Elect from the earth -- the Harvest from the clouds,
3. And the delivery of both as the Great Multitude to the third Heaven of the Father's presence -
4. And the opening of the Scroll -
5. Does the Wrath of God go forth -- and Ezekiel 9 describes the follow-on to Joel 2's battle scene assaulting Jerusalem.

Now in the order of things, the talking image of the anti-Christ, the abomination of Daniel 9:27, is not mentioned in Ezekiel.  This omission does not negate it's obliteration; that can only be surmised as a fact because at the time Ezekiel witnesses the Temple scene, the Temple has been secured and it is not there.  Ezekiel does not see the actual entry nor any action taking place which would include the destruction of the talking image abomination.  An omission of an event is not the commission of an error in providing a linear, prophetic narrative in the Bible.

The man with the writing kit may very well be John.  John is a witness in Heaven to the end-times, and he is writing down what he sees (Rev 10:4).  He is also given tasks to do (Rev 11:1).  And this might not be the only time Ezekiel "sees" John... as per the measuring of the Temple.

The scene in Ezekiel 9 describes the elimination of the wicked on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.  

The killing is only to all who had not mourned what had been happening: "...and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst."

• The ones who are killed are the ones who went along - gladly even - with the anti-Christ.
• They are normal human beings.

As to the ones with the "mark" - and we're not talking about the mark of the beast here...

• The ones who are spared are also normal human beings.
• The "mark" is only to spare them.

The ones, six in number, who are doing the killing, may very well be the smallest unit of the 144,000: half a dozen - a squad.
The 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the Harvest - being of the same type: i.e., Christian.

• Their sealing is not quite the same as the "mark" the Jews in Jerusalem (and possibly others) receive.
• Their sealing makes them invincible, and perhaps immune to the ravages of God's Wrath.

The ones "marked" are not so immune, nor are they invincible; some will die later.  They are just spared at this point - some of the Remnant Jews will come from Jerusalem.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

13 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The suffering that will come will be great.  The wrath of God will not come upon those who are marked with the seal of God.  They might experience the rage of Satan.  It is a point not to confuse the two.  Christians are not exempt from suffering nor are they exempt from martyrdom.

The 144,000 are not "marked" as the people of Jerusalem are on the Day of the Lord's Wrath ~ but are "sealed".  The 144,000 may even have immortal and imperishable bodies as well, being as the same type as the Harvest - "wheat", or the Elect.

As a Pre-Wrath adherent, I agree that we will suffer oppression in the first half of the one 'seven' - worse than the hypocritical intolerance the politically correct left heaps upon us now with their criticism and sarcasm and constant, never-ending belittling.

As a Pre-Wrath adherent, I agree that we will suffer Satan's rage - especially when he cannot ensnare all the Jews when the anti-Christ sweeps down from the North and encircles Jerusalem and some of the Jews in Judea escape.  This post-midpoint event is called the Great Tribulation.

The Wrath of God will fall on all who are not taken up - save a tiny portion: the Remnant Jews who God shepherds about.  The Proud, and the Wicked will die.  When Scripture says God will destroy "all", it also says that a few will survive.  Thus, like at other times, "all" (kol) in the Bible does not mean a technical 100% as our culture demands, but "all that is applicable" as in "all of Israel shall be saved", or as in the end, "all who deserve to die" will die.  

This "all" is pretty close to 100% in the case of the end-times.  If we take Zechariah literally, 1/3 of the Jews live through the end-times, through the Time of Jacob's Trouble.  As there are 15 million Jews now, 5 million survive, and some just barely, because some Jews make it without being shepherded.  If we take Zechariah literally again, ten Gentiles (the Meek, who also barely survive the Wrath of God) take hold of one Jew and ask to her/him to take them to their God.  This is important.  At no time in history did those the Hebrews conquer turn to worship the God of Abraham.  In the end-times, after all is said and done -- they will.  If we allow a 10:1 ration of Meek to Remnant, this gives us a total post-apocalyptic world population of 55 million.  Current world population is 7.4 billion.  Compared to 7,400 million, (to put things in the same unit of measure: millions) 55 million represents LESS THAN 1% of the current population.  That's pretty much means all will die.

So as a Pre-Wrath adherent, I also agree that we will not only suffer Satan's wrath, but also that we will be persecuted, starved to death, and martyred outright in the Great Tribulation which is ended suddenly, and quite abruptly, after not much time (but He will tarry in coming) by the otherwise unexpected (by the wicked) sun/moon/star sign which precedes the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes again.

As I take it that you are a Post-Trib adherent, we differ in our timing, and by the nature of our contrasting eschatologies, the complexity of the First Resurrection.

[seeking the lost]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

So as a Pre-Wrath adherent, I also agree that we will not only suffer Satan's wrath, but also that we will be persecuted, starved to death, and martyred outright in the Great Tribulation which is ended suddenly, and quite abruptly, after not much time (but He will tarry in coming) by the otherwise unexpected (by the wicked) sun/moon/star sign which precedes the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes again.

As I take it that you are a Post-Trib adherent, we differ in our timing, and by the nature of our contrasting eschatologies, the complexity of the First Resurrection.

Thank you.  I enjoy your perspective and all the work and time that you have given this.  I have a very simple view with a great influence coming from the wheat and tares parable explanation and the Thessalonians passage.  The wheat and tares of course teach that the tares are gathered first.  Thessalonians teaches that we(those who are alive) will not precede those who are asleep.  My understanding is that until the resurrection there will not be a catching away.  The first resurrection leaves a lot of people in the grave.  I therefore think and believe that the we will not precede them means any of them that until all that are asleep in Christ are raised there will be no rapture. This is the second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years.

My position for the rapture is allowing Jesus to come to rule upon the earth and also be here with us now (He did promise to be with us even to the end of the age.  John identified Jesus in this way: Rev. 1:4

 ⁴ John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; ⁵ and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

Jesus is here and He is to come.  To tie up all that Jesus does in one event leads to many twistings and convolutions.  I do believe that this present world will be destroyed and that the purpose of the rapture is not to separate us from the tares but to take us to a new heaven and a new earth and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I want to thank you for your service to country.  Thank You.

Edited August 18, 2016 by seeking the lost