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The Jewishness of the Olivet Discourse


Retrobyter

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On August 20, 2016 at 4:46 AM, Sister said:

Retrobyter

I don't mean to post numerous times, but have to break it up as your answer to is so long!

Yes, Israel served God, so out of all those tribes and people of Israel, we have the ones who obeyed God's voice through the commandments, and the ones who did not.  Even the house of Israel is sifted according to what was required of them back then.  Don't make them all the same.  There are good fruits, and rotten ones.  All sacrificed, but all didn't get to find out who's sacrifices were accepted.  There's a day for this set aside, and that day will declare who those remnants are to be brought into the kingdom on EARTH, to finally meet their savior, and learn his teachings also...they are hand picked from all generations, and chosen to restore Israel to it's former glory, setting them apart from the others who destroyed their name by committing abominations.  God does not pick the WICKED out of Israel to get this privilege, but only those whose sacrifices were ACCEPTED, will be brought back in to lead Israel, and multiply  in the kingdom, to learn this time what is required in order to have TRUE WORSHIP, and that it consists of sacrifices of the heart now.

If the OT saints of Israel are of the resurrection, then how can they multiply?  Please ask yourself this.  Does spirit multiply and have babies?

Shalom, Sister.

Who says that the resurrected are "spirit?" We get our BODIES back! And, they shall be like unto His glorious body (Phil. 3:21)! Sure, Paul said that they would be "spiritual bodies" (Greek: soomata pneumatikos), but that's in contrast to "NATURAL bodies" (Greek: soomata psuchikos). These words mean that we will not be resurrected as mere "air-breathing bodies," but as "wind-blasting bodies!"

If we're going to be like the Master, remember how His body was!

Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

So, His resurrected body has "flesh and bones"; He said that He wasn't a "spirit"; He could be seen; He could be handled and felt; He could talk to them, and He could eat food!

Now, granted, there were some things that were different about this new body He had become, but that's because He is incorruptible and immortal! It's because He will be a SUPER body, able to appear in rooms with the doors being shut! I also believe that He will have the ability to appear with His normal appearance (like the "gardener" Mary saw, John 20:15) but will also have the ability to appear as bright as the noonday sun with eyes like burning flames and glowing clothes, whiter than any bleach on earth could whiten them (Matthew 17:2; Mark 9:2-3; Luke 9:29; Revelation 1:13-16). But, He's a body nonetheless.

Now, can such a body reproduce? I don't know, but then, if you're honest, neither do you. Did you know that there's a passage of Scripture (Psalm 45:9) that suggests that the Messiah as King of Israel will have a Queen? And, I DON'T mean the "church," either!

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21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

Who says that the resurrected are "spirit?" We get our BODIES back! And, they shall be like unto His glorious body (Phil. 3:21)! Sure, Paul said that they would be "spiritual bodies" (Greek: soomata pneumatikos), but that's in contrast to "NATURAL bodies" (Greek: soomata psuchikos). These words mean that we will not be resurrected as mere "air-breathing bodies," but as "wind-blasting bodies!"

If we're going to be like the Master, remember how His body was!

Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

So, His resurrected body has "flesh and bones"; He said that He wasn't a "spirit"; He could be seen; He could be handled and felt; He could talk to them, and He could eat food!

Now, granted, there were some things that were different about this new body He had become, but that's because He is incorruptible and immortal! It's because He will be a SUPER body, able to appear in rooms with the doors being shut! I also believe that He will have the ability to appear with His normal appearance (like the "gardener" Mary saw, John 20:15) but will also have the ability to appear as bright as the noonday sun with eyes like burning flames and glowing clothes, whiter than any bleach on earth could whiten them (Matthew 17:2; Mark 9:2-3; Luke 9:29; Revelation 1:13-16). But, He's a body nonetheless.

Now, can such a body reproduce? I don't know, but then, if you're honest, neither do you. Did you know that there's a passage of Scripture (Psalm 45:9) that suggests that the Messiah as King of Israel will have a Queen? And, I DON'T mean the "church," either!

Shalom Retrobyter

I think we've been down this road before ^_^

Spirit is a higher material.  It can change into whatever.  Just like the angels who ate with Abraham and Lot, they appeared as "men of flesh", however it doesn't mean that "flesh" is their natural form.

When Jesus appeared to his apostles, he appeared as "Flesh", so not to scare them, for if he appeared as a "spirit" in his true form, they would of been terrified or even not be able to see him.  So when Jesus said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have", he was telling the truth, because that's what he changed into, ...flesh.....to show them that it was him.

1 Corinthians 15:39   All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

  1 Corinthians 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:44   It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 

What Jesus did in showing himself flesh, tells me one thing.  He can come down to our level and interact without causing someone to die of fright.  He will do this in the kingdom also amongst the Israelites, who will see him....and so will the resurrected saints be able to show themselves to men and interact when required.  They will have the ability to put on the form of "flesh" to serve a purpose, not to scare, but to instruct and teach.

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2 hours ago, Sister said:

Shalom Retrobyter

I think we've been down this road before ^_^

Spirit is a higher material.  It can change into whatever.  Just like the angels who ate with Abraham and Lot, they appeared as "men of flesh", however it doesn't mean that "flesh" is their natural form.

Shalom, Sister.

Spirit is a "higher MATERIAL?" Would that be solid, liquid, gas, or plasma? Why can't it be made of what He SAID it was made of - "flesh and bones?!" "Just like the angels?" Yeshua` is NOT "just like the angels!" I would reject that just as much as I reject the Jehovah's Witnesses calling Him, "Michael the Archangel!"

2 hours ago, Sister said:

When Jesus appeared to his apostles, he appeared as "Flesh", so not to scare them, for if he appeared as a "spirit" in his true form, they would of been terrified or even not be able to see him.  So when Jesus said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have", he was telling the truth, because that's what he changed into, ...flesh.....to show them that it was him.

1 Corinthians 15:39   All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

  1 Corinthians 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:44   It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 

What Jesus did in showing himself flesh, tells me one thing.  He can come down to our level and interact without causing someone to die of fright.  He will do this in the kingdom also amongst the Israelites, who will see him....and so will the resurrected saints be able to show themselves to men and interact when required.  They will have the ability to put on the form of "flesh" to serve a purpose, not to scare, but to instruct and teach.

You've skipped a few verses in between 1 Cor. 15:40 and 44. Consequently, you've missed the point of verse 40!

1 Corinthians 15:39-45
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural (Greek: psuchikon) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a living air-breather"); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a life-making wind").
KJV

Also, in not consulting the Greek, you've also missed the comparison between "psuchikon" and "pneumatikon," and how they are related to their fundamental words "psuchee" and "pneuma," respectively. BOTH bodies are physical and BOTH bodies are "muscles and bones."

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Shalom Retrobyter

Quote

Spirit is a "higher MATERIAL?" Would that be solid, liquid, gas, or plasma?

Quote

I don't know what "spirit is made of", and only know that it is superior to flesh.  It is invisible to the human eye in it's natural form, because it's made of a heavenly substance, and not made of the earthly materials like dust..

 

Quote

Why can't it be made of what He SAID it was made of - "flesh and bones?!" "Just like the angels?" Yeshua` is NOT "just like the angels!" I would reject that just as much as I reject the Jehovah's Witnesses calling Him, "Michael the Archangel!"

Christ "appeared" as flesh and bones after his resurrection.   Christ is now not a man, but raised spirit, and the angels were created of a heavenly substance.  We will be like the angels at our change - spirit creatures, not flesh creatures. 

Matthew 22:30   For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Of course Christ is better than the angels, he created them, but they are still creatures made of spirit and not flesh.  They are heavenly not earthly and capable  of doing so much more than we are at present in our flesh bodies so limited.

In fact Christ was made "lower" than the angels when he came and dwelt with man.  He was killed because he was "flesh".  Now he is raised in glory and has a name higher than anyone in heaven or on earth.

I would never call the Archangel Michael- Christ, as I do know the difference that Christ is not a created being such as an angel, but created he them.

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On August 25, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Sister said:

Shalom Retrobyter

I don't know what "spirit is made of", and only know that it is superior to flesh.  It is invisible to the human eye in it's natural form, because it's made of a heavenly substance, and not made of the earthly materials like dust..

 

Christ "appeared" as flesh and bones after his resurrection.   Christ is now not a man, but raised spirit, and the angels were created of a heavenly substance.  We will be like the angels at our change - spirit creatures, not flesh creatures. 

Matthew 22:30   For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Of course Christ is better than the angels, he created them, but they are still creatures made of spirit and not flesh.  They are heavenly not earthly and capable  of doing so much more than we are at present in our flesh bodies so limited.

In fact Christ was made "lower" than the angels when he came and dwelt with man.  He was killed because he was "flesh".  Now he is raised in glory and has a name higher than anyone in heaven or on earth.

I would never call the Archangel Michael- Christ, as I do know the difference that Christ is not a created being such as an angel, but created he them.

Shalom, Sister.

Okay, so now we have a statement based solely on your belief: "I don't know what 'spirit is made of,' and only know that it is superior to flesh." Well, if you don't know what "spirit" is made of, how do you know that "it is superior to flesh?" Maybe it's INFERIOR! Wouldn't you have to know the content of "spirit" to know how it compares to "flesh?"

When one looks up "spirit" in the Bible, one will find that it was a word used for translation of the Hebrew word "ruwach" in the OT and a word for translation of the Greek word "pneuma" in the NT:

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath,  cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

OT:7306 ruwach (roo'-akh); a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
KJV - accept, smell,  touch, make of quick understanding.

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

NT:4154 pneoo (pneh'-o); a primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:
KJV - blow. Compare NT:5594.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Based on all this, I can tell you what the substance of "spirit" is: It's AIR! It's the energy one adds to make the movement of air what we call "wind!" Thus, it is GASEOUS MATTER that is moving from a high pressure area to a low pressure area, following the mechanics of physics! This includes a person's forceful "BREATH!"

Genesis 7:11-22
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (Hebrew: ruwach = "spirit") of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath (Hebrew: ruwach = "spirit") of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV

The animals as well as the human beings who went into the ark had within them the "breath of life." The animals and human beings who failed to enter the ark DROWNED

You said, "Christ is now not a man." I beg to differ:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
KJV

He IS a man, some say the "God-man," but He is indeed CURRENTLY the mediator between God and men, and this verse just calls Yeshua` "the man" (as well as the "Christ" or the "Messiah")!

Another term that you need to understand is the Greek word "aggelos":

NT:32 aggelos (ang'-el-os); from aggelloo [probably derived from NT:71; compare NT:34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:
KJV - angel, messenger.

NT:71 agoo (ag'-o); a primary verb; properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce:
KJV - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

See, this word was not translated in some English versions. Instead, it was merely transliterated; that is, the Greek letters were simply changed into English letters, but the word stayed the same.

Alpha --> "a",
gamma-gamma, which has the "ng" sound, --> "ng",
epsilon --> "e", and
lambda --> "l".

The omicron-sigma ending was dropped since it would change anyway from one part of speech to another. String all the English letters together and one gets "angel." However, the word MEANS "a messenger," and it applies to HUMAN messengers as well as SUPERNATURAL messengers. John the Baptist was one such instance:

Matthew 11:7-11
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John,
What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelosbefore thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

KJV

The cool thing about this passage is that it LINKS this word to the Hebrew word in the verse which Yeshua` quotes:

Malachi 3:1
1 Behold, I will send my messenger (Hebrew: ma'laakhiy = "my-messenger"), and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
KJV

OT:4397 mal'aakh (mal-awk'); from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):
KJV - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, this is the Hebrew word most often translated as "angel" in English versions of the Bible (101 times, although the word occurs in the OT 213 times).

Now, it is my contention that MOST of the times (if not ALL) that these two words are used, they refer to HUMAN MESSENGERS!

For instance, look at 1 Peter 1:12:

1 Peter 1:12
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV

How often have you heard this phrase used to support the spooky thought that the angels have to fold their wings when saints sing about redemption? 

Refrain
Holy, holy, is what the angels sing,
And I expect to help them make the courts of Heaven ring;
But when I sing redemption’s story, they will fold their wings,
For angels never felt the joys that our salvation brings.

From Hymnary.org

Del Delker, George Beverly Shea, and others sings this song at this Youtube recording.

Well, there's a better way to interpret 1 Peter 1:12. USE ITS CONTEXT!

1 Peter 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels (Greek: aggeloi = messengers) desire to look into.
KJV

So, the prophets were searching the very prophecies that they prophesied, searching for information about the future Christ or Messiah! Prophets are human messengers for God to His people. So, why can't the word "aggeloi" (the plural of "aggelos") be referring to THEM?! Perhaps there are some instances when the word refers to supernatural messengers, but there are MANY times when human messengers makes just as much sense, even BETTER sense!

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

Okay, so now we have a statement based solely on your belief: "I don't know what 'spirit is made of,' and only know that it is superior to flesh." Well, if you don't know what "spirit" is made of, how do you know that "it is superior to flesh?" Maybe it's INFERIOR! Wouldn't you have to know the content of "spirit" to know how it compares to "flesh?"

Shalom Retrobyter.

I know that spirit is superior to flesh because it can be;

"invisible" to the human eye, a great advantage.

It can walk through walls, walk on water, travel great distances, like between heaven and earth in the blink of an eye, communicate with God telepathically, they cannot be killed by men, nor do they get sick, they do not need food and water to survive, nor the sun.  They can appear as whatever they like....did not Satan show himself as a serpent?  Is he really a serpent?  Did not Christ appear as a Rock in the wilderness?  Is he really a rock?

So with all the advantages they have, the wicked spirits have that ability to decieve, to tempt, to make things happen for their evil purposes, and with God's angels, are they not ministering spirits?  How does an angel minister?  They ministered to the Lord didn't they?  They also minister to us, for they are around us, sent to protect those who love God, and give guidance to us without us even knowing they are there.  They are all ministering spirits, working for the Lord, and those that left their estate, are ministering for Satan.

So how can we even suggest that spirit is inferior to flesh?  They have all those advantages over us to do good or evil, ...to sway us in either direction.

 Hebrews 2:7   Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Christ was made a little lower than the angels because he came to us "as flesh", and not as an angel made of spirit.  He had to be flesh, because he had to be sacrificed.  You cannot sacrifice a spirit.  Man cannot kill spirit.  Spirit cannot bleed.  So there's the proof that flesh is indeed inferior to spirit.

Hebrews 2:9   But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

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On August 29, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Sister said:

Shalom Retrobyter.

I know that spirit is superior to flesh because it can be;

"invisible" to the human eye, a great advantage.

It can walk through walls, walk on water, travel great distances, like between heaven and earth in the blink of an eye, communicate with God telepathically, they cannot be killed by men, nor do they get sick, they do not need food and water to survive, nor the sun.  They can appear as whatever they like....did not Satan show himself as a serpent?  Is he really a serpent?  Did not Christ appear as a Rock in the wilderness?  Is he really a rock?

So with all the advantages they have, the wicked spirits have that ability to decieve, to tempt, to make things happen for their evil purposes, and with God's angels, are they not ministering spirits?  How does an angel minister?  They ministered to the Lord didn't they?  They also minister to us, for they are around us, sent to protect those who love God, and give guidance to us without us even knowing they are there.  They are all ministering spirits, working for the Lord, and those that left their estate, are ministering for Satan.

So how can we even suggest that spirit is inferior to flesh?  They have all those advantages over us to do good or evil, ...to sway us in either direction.

 Hebrews 2:7   Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Christ was made a little lower than the angels because he came to us "as flesh", and not as an angel made of spirit.  He had to be flesh, because he had to be sacrificed.  You cannot sacrifice a spirit.  Man cannot kill spirit.  Spirit cannot bleed.  So there's the proof that flesh is indeed inferior to spirit.

Hebrews 2:9   But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

Wow. You've made a HUGE AMOUNT of assumptions! And, I'm NOT talking about the various things you list about "spirit!"

Let's list them:

You said, "... because it [spirit] can be ... 'invisible' to the human eye...." Actually, literally, "breath" typically IS invisible to the human eye. Only when one's warm breath is seen in cold air would it be visible, and then only until the temperatures equalize. Thus, the first assumption is that you understand what "spirit" means.

You said, "It [spirit] can walk through walls,..." I assume that you are referring to Master Yeshua`s appearance within the room when they were discussing the incident on the road to "Emmaus," both with Toma (Thomas) present and without. (John 20:19, 26) However, I can envision another scenario: What if Yeshua` simply walked through the door before it was shut IN DISGUISE or otherwise UNRECOGNIZABLY, much as He had already done as the "gardener" and later on the road?! Perhaps, the REAL power He exhibited was being able to change His appearance at will! The disciples present were a WHOLE LOT MORE than just the Twelve! Could you blend into a group of 120+ people and be inconspicuous? Some could and not even change one's appearance!

You said, "It [spirit] can ... walk on water." I would assume that you are referring to Yeshua`. HOWEVER, He was NOT a "spirit," either then or later!

Matthew 14:25-32
25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said,
Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him,
O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
KJV

Mark 6:46-51
46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.
47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land.
48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.
49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:
50
For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.
51 And he went up unto them into the ship; and the wind ceased: and they were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure, and wondered.
KJV

This account (recorded from two different perspectives) was about Yeshua` BEFORE His death and resurrection! Thus, He didn't have His resurrected body, yet!

You said, "It [spirit] can ... travel great distances, like between heaven and earth, in the blink of an eye." With this one, I'm baffled... unless you're talking about Gavriel who flew to Daniel. But, see, you DON'T KNOW how far Gavriel had to fly; so, you can't just arbitrarily say that he went "great distances!" And, that's also true for Yeshua` Himself after His resurrection! Not to mention, that it's a HUGE assumption to suggest that He went ANYWHERE before His PHYSICAL ascension! He told Miryam,

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
KJV

You said, "It [spirit] can ... communicate with God telepathically." Really? Isn't it rather that God, who is all-knowing and omnipresent, listens to the prayers of His people? And, if you're talking about the HOLY SPIRIT, when the Scriptures said,

Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
KJV

... then aren't we really seeing that He is the SAME GOD?! This has NOTHING to do with "communicating telepathically!"

You said, "they [spirits] cannot be killed by men." For a FAR DIFFERENT reason, I would agree with you: breaths [Greek: pneumata = "spirits"] are not alive so that they CAN be "killed by men!"

You said, "nor do they [spirits] get sick." Again, you're right; they aren't alive so that they CAN get sick!

You said, "they [spirits] do not need food and water to survive." Again, they're not alive so that they would "NEED food and water, nor the sun, to survive!" They are just "currents of air!"

You said, "They [spirits] can appear as whatever they like....did not Satan show himself as a serpent?  Is he really a serpent?" In these statements, you have assumed (1) that haSatan is a spirit, (2) that haSatan came first before the serpent appeared, and (3) that haSatan was really the one who tempted Eve. The Scriptures call him first "a serpent":

Genesis 3:1
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
KJV

In fact, at NO time during the record of this temptation did Mosheh (Moses) use the word "Satan!"

Later in the book of the Revelation, Yochanan (John) said,

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KJV

Thus, the texts say that it was the dragon, the original serpent or snake, that was called the Devil (Greek: ho diabolos = "the slanderer") and Satan (Greek: Satan = Hebrew: haSaatan = "the Enemy"), NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! The serpent or the snake came BEFORE the term "haSatan," meaning "the Enemy!" It was a snake that originally had legs, a "dragon," or what we would call today, a "dinosaur," including flying sorts of dinosaur.

Today, we've been duped by evolutionary propaganda into thinking that these dinosaurs lived LONG before human beings were on the earth. By so thinking, we find it hard to understand that they were aboard the ark WITH NOAH, the same as lions and elephants and giraffes were. But, dinosaurs are largely to blame for all the legends and myths of dragons that so many separate civilizations have in their histories. They SURVIVED the Flood and were later exterminated when they developed the same carnivore appetites as did the lions, tigers, and other carnivores that have survived the Flood! Since reptiles never stop physically growing both in length and in girth, the longer they lived, the more they needed to eat. In various suitable climates, they grew to enormous sizes and became a danger to early civilizations after the Flood! They were hunted by men like Nimrod, who hunted them to their extinction.

That's enough for tonight, but can you see that your reasoning is based largely upon your theological assumptions, rather than the Bible directly?

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8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom Retrobyter

Yes you are right, Jesus was not yet resurrected when he walked on water.  My mistake.  I have never thought that, but the other night before this conversation, I was so tired and listening to Matthew on audio and at the beginning of the chapter I got it mixed up, I realise now the highlighted below is what I must of heard and thought I had previously missed something all these years!

Matthew 14:2   And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

I should of gone back over before I spake.  Apologies.  You are right.

I shall continue this conversation with you later, as I am so tired and wish not for another stupid statement coming out of my mouth!

I shall go stand in the corner!

Edited by Sister
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Shabbat shalom, Sister.

Now, you've got me feeling bad! I never meant for you to take this personally. All I'm trying to show you is that "spirit" just means the "wind" or a forceful "breath." Sometimes, it may be extended to what comes out of our mouths with that breath, such as our attitudes expressed in words, and sometimes it may apply to an apparition, such as a will-o'-the-wisp that rides upon a wind, just as our breath can be seen on a cool night.

However, Yeshua` being a resurrected body, was (and is) still "flesh and bones!" The fact that it is also called a "spiritual body" or a "sooma pneumatikon," simply compares that new body to a "natural body" or a "sooma psuchikon," an "AIR-BREATHING body." Thus, He is now a "WIND-BLASTING body," capable of breathing life into a dead corpse!

Ezekiel 37:8-10
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
KJV

Thus, these dead bodies with "no breath in them" were breathed upon by this wind, "the breath came into them, and they lived!" Care to guess which words are the Hebrew word "ruwach" (often translated as "spirit") in these verses? If you guessed, "wind" and "breath," you're right!

That's what we are told to expect in the Resurrection! That's why it's recorded in the great Resurrection Chapter, 1 Cor. 15!

1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon), and there is a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon).
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (a living air-breather); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (a life-giving wind-blaster).
KJV

The word "quickening" is from the same source as the "quick of a branch," referring to the green of a branch lying under the bark. That's how one can determine whether a tree without its leaves in the winter is still alive: Just cut into the branch or twig a little and see if there's the green of life below the brown of the bark.

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