Can you hurt someone if you love them perfectly?

[fantasymay]

Yes: Then hell is fair.

No: Then hell is not fair.

[Guest]

What a loaded question! GOD loves everyone so perfectly that HE became man - Jesus Christ - and gave His life so that you could live forever with HIM. If man refuses GOD's free gift of salvation, than man chooses eternal torment (which you choose to call hell). How much more fairer can one get? Letting man choose their own destiny. HE does not hurt us, we choose for ourselves. What is your point with posting all these vailed attacks against GOD?

[kwikphilly]

So what exactly is the question? Can, 'I" hurt someone if "I" love them PERFECTLY? We,as humans,I don't think can love "perfectly"....we can access the Heart & Mind of Christ and then we can love as He does,Him in us LOVES others......but are you talking about people or God?

Gods LOVE is Perfect Love and "hell" was never intended for people.............

Quote

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
                                                                                                                                                           John 3:16

God has nothing to do with people's choices to reject His Perfect Love............

[missmuffet]

Hell is fair. And the judgment that we will all go through will be incredibly fair. Not like all the corrupt judges in our world. God loves everyone perfectly. But God does not send someone to hell people send themselves to hell for not believing in Jesus Christ.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/31/2016 at 5:03 AM, fantasymay said:

 

Can you hurt someone if you love them perfectly?

Yes: Then hell is fair.

No: Then hell is not fair.

Don't oversimplify the complex. 

Hell exists. It exists, and there in eternity, things good, are separated from thing evil.

All people, are evil (except Jesus).

All people then are primarily destined to Hell, because they are in the class of "non-good", so, by default, Hell is where people will go, because of their evil.

God has attributes,  He has a nature, and He follows that nature.

One of God's attributes, is that He loves.

Another of God's attributes, is that He is just.

Now, because you have not told us if you are talking about people, or about God, or really if you have a question, or a point, it is hard to answer or reply intelligently. If there is something you want to state, or ask, get it out on the table, so that it does not look like some sort of logical trap or agenda. Because of your vagueness in point or purpose, I am afraid this will be a somewhat lengthy response, to try to cover a few bases.

You said:

"Yes: Then hell is fair.

No: Then hell is not fair."

You have not even made a connection between Hell, fairness, and love, you are using a non-sequitur, whatever it is you are trying to express.

Now, I made the point that God is just. People often make the mistake of equating fairness and justice. The two are not necessarily connected. People also often make the mistake of equating fairness, to equal treatment. 

Fairness, has more to do with perception, or rules. For example, when my child has a bedtime, of 9 o'clock, and my other child has a bedtime of 10 o'clock, the younger one might protest: "but that is not fair!" She perceives that as unfair.

She would be right to observe, that I am treating them differently, but that has nothing to do with justice (nothing about justice requires be to set a specific bedtime). It also does not demonstrate a lack of love, for I love them both. It has to do with the rules that I make, for my reasons, and I am not answerable to them about my choices.

A president may pardon a criminal for a crime. They can issue that pardon, without any necessity of fairness or even justice, there is no love necessary, it is just the rules! It is merciful. A president can treat one person one way, another might be treated another way. That is just in the nature of his power.

Point being then, that Hell is fair, having no necessary connection to love, it is just the rules, it is the decision, the decree of the person who makes the rules (God), for His own reasons, without being answerable to us.

So, back to justice. Justice is about getting what a person deserves. Everyone deserves Hell. So, Hell is just. It is within the prerogative of God, in is His sovereignty, to send people to Hell. Therefore, being His choice, for His reasons, His rules, it is also fair. However, it is not equal.

God, is also a God of love, He loves everyone, but that does not mean that He loves everyone equally, nor does it compel Him to ignore His justice. This brings us to an aspect of God's love, the one we call grace.

Where justice is getting what we deserve (in this case Hell), grace is about getting what we do not deserve (forgiveness).

Roman 6
 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice, that the wages of sin (wages being what we have earned) is death, and that is contrasted with a free gift, that which we did NOT earn.

Having already mentioned God as having justice and grace and love, let me add another related word, that word is "mercy". In the case example of the president granting a pardon for a crime, to it is with God, when He extends mercy.

Eph 2
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I think I had more things to say, but I forgot what they were. However, regarding human love, we never do that perfectly. We might at times hurt people. However, when we attempt to love others, we do so for their benefit, not to harm them, though it might be painful to them to do the right thing in loving them.

Keep this in mind, regarding pain and love:

 4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
            “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
            NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

      6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
            AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

[other one]

On 7/31/2016 at 7:03 AM, fantasymay said:

Yes: Then hell is fair.

No: Then hell is not fair.

God has told us that he is going to destroy this world....   he has made a way for us to not be here when he does...   and it is our choice, not his that will decide where we end up.   He will judge, but it is up to you and I to do what is necessary not to be here when it goes.   There is no way at all that we ourselves can escape what is coming, but if we accept him and do as he has told us he will take us away before it happens.

I think that's about as fair as it comes.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

 But God does not send someone to hell people send themselves to hell for not believing in Jesus Christ.

I don't think that is quite scripturally accurate, though you point is relevant. To be nit-picky about it - we do not send ourselves to Hell, for not believing in Jesus, God sends us to Hell, for our sin. Hell separates us from Him, and in fact separates all things evil from His eternal presence, and God chooses to grant repentance, and impute the righteousness of His Son, to our account, so that we can be with him, in His righteousness, His goodness so that having clothed us in His righteousness, we can dwell forever with Him. He chooses to save us from our deserved destiny, totally by His grace. We are rescued from Hell by Him, not sent there for our lack of faith. We did not choose Him, He chose us, and it is a very good thing for us, that He did.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

43 minutes ago, other one said:

I think that's about as fair as it comes.

To magnify your main point, it is way more that fair, it is love and grace, and apart from it, we would be doomed!

[BK1110]

On 7/31/2016 at 7:03 AM, fantasymay said:

Yes: Then hell is fair.

No: Then hell is not fair.

You're being vague, so correct me if I'm misinterpreting your ideas and intentions.

The main confusion seems to be your idea of hell. Hell is a separation from God that is the end result of our choice to reject God, His will, and a relationship with Him. God sustains us and the universe; how conceited it is for us to think we should do whatever we please, rejecting God all along the way, and then get offended or angry if He does not save us from hell. It was His prerogative to make us in the first place, to make all of creation, and it was us that rejected Him. Hell is the just rewards for rebellion and sin.

However, being a God of perfect love, he sent Jesus to live as a human in this fallen world, being rejected, mocked, and finally killed agonizingly, for the sake of offering us the salvation we neither deserved nor could obtain by ourselves.

It sounds like your question comes from flawed ideas; that human will is ultimately right. That is to say, that we should be able to do whatever we want with our lives and expect no consequences. But God is a God of both love and holiness; you cannot separate the two. There is nothing unloving about allowing criminals to receive punishment for their crimes. He showed a love above and beyond, though, by offering us a way to escape that punishment that we rightly deserve.

[MeCajunboy]

No one loves perfectly.   We even hurt our Lord God  when we son against him.   Imagine how we hurt loved ones since they depend on us so much.   Yes,  if we sin against the Lord we certainly sin against mankind.   That is not perfect love because we are all sinners.   God Bless and keep you safe.