Once saved always saved?

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Denadii said:

If once saved always saved is true then why did the Lord say this?

Revelation 2: 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you have left your first love.

5 Remember therefore from where you are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto you quickly, and will remove your lampstand out of its place, except you repent.

Then to the children of the harlot fleshly church that are driven by the seductions of Jezebel Jesus says the following.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Then to the Laodicean fleshly church that fell into deception of the gospel of greed He says;

Revelation 3 : 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would that you were cold or hot.

16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

17 Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

Then we see God's call to repentance through Isaiah 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD has spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3 The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib: but Israel does not know, my people do not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a descendant of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they have turned away backward.

5 Why should you be stricken any more? you will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither soothed with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a hut in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9 Unless the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of male goats.

12 When you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to trample my courts?

13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary of bearing them.

15 And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you: yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make yourself clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do good; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

21 How has the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of justice; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22 Your silver has become dross, your wine mixed with water:

23 Your princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: everyone loves bribes, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come before them.

24 Therefore says the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will rid myself of my adversaries, and avenge myself of my enemies:

25 And I will turn my hand upon you, and thoroughly purge away your dross, and take away all your alloy:

26 And I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning: afterward you shall be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and her converts with righteousness.

28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

29 For you shall be ashamed of the sacred oaks which you have desired, and you shall be embarrassed for the gardens that you have chosen.

30 For you shall be as an oak whose leaf fades, and as a garden that has no water.

31 And the strong shall be as tinder, and the work of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Isaiah 5: 11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflames them!

12 And the harp, and the lyre, the timbrel, and flute, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

13 Therefore my people have gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

14 Therefore sheol has enlarged itself, and opened its mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that exults, shall descend into it.

15 And man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in justice, and God who is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

17 Then shall the lambs feed in their pasture, and the waste places of the rich ones shall strangers eat.

18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:

19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it!

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mix strong drink:

23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, and take away the justice of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

He is speaking to churches, not individual Christians.   He is talking about their removal as churches, not losing their salvation. 

[OldCoot]

If one can lose eternal life, then it stands to reason that it wasn't eternal to begin with. It is the paramount of non sequiturs.... one is granted the free gift of eternal life by trusting in Messiah, but it can be lost because it isn't eternal. And if one can lose eternal life, then we are all doomed. No one is sinless and even the most devout person, their righteousness is as filthy rags, or as the literal Hebrew says.... our righteousness is like a used menstrual cloth. Give the Hebrew language credit for graphic mental images. 

And everyone, daily, has committed some sin and more likely, many sins. A prideful look. Looking down at someone. An impure thought, even a short one that is hardly noticed by the person. A failure to testify of Yeshua to someone. One would have to seek forgiveness almost every second of every day for sin, both known and unknown. Virtually impossible. Especially one that might have occurred just before that semi truck slammed into that car one is riding in and they immediately die on the spot.

There has to be some reliance on the idea that Yeshua is able to hold on to that which we have entrusted to Him. Else, who is it we are really placing our trust in? If it is not Him and who He is, then who? It would seem if it is not Him then it must be one's self and one's efforts. Best I can tell, we have no ability to save ourselves. That is why God the Father had to sacrifice His own Son. 

And if one realizes the gift that has been given them, they will want to live in appreciation of that gift. That doesn't mean anyone will live perfect lives. We all come to faith with a lot of baggage we have learn to rid our lives of.  And we will all fall flat on our face almost daily, but we recognize our failures, turn from it and seek forgiveness, and get back up and drive on. Knowing that He understands our weaknesses and loves us. And that He paid the ultimate price for us and is going to do everything in His power to hold onto us.

It would seem that there is too much Pharisaical approach to the issue. It turns things into a works righteousness thing and enslaves those individuals with weaker faith into submission to other's ideas of what salvation is and how to live their life. It has such weaker individuals so worried about it that they are no useful good to Messiah here and now, or they just plain give up because they feel they can never live up to the standard. And it allows pride, the deadliest sin of all, to enter into others who then feel they are more righteous than the other guy or gal. The whole thing is a trap to ensnare folks in. It is an academic exercise in futility and can make Christianity look less appealing to others.  It can take the focus off of Yeshua and who He is.

Edited October 21, 2017 by OldCoot
Stupid Spell Checker!

[simplejeff]

If someone obeys, they might live.  If someone disobeys,  maybe not...... maybe yes.... 

Trusting belief,  relying on Yahweh, being a DOER of His Word as He Says, is different.  (not just a HEARER) . . .

So then,  eternal life is determined by Yahweh, not by men. 

Men are so easy to be deceived,  and most are doomed. 
 

[Heb 13:8]

The Word Agape

Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall..

trouble 
hardship  
persecution  
famine 
nakedness  
danger 
sword?

Neither.. 

death 
life
angels 
demons
present 
future
any powers
height 
depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love (agape) has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love (agape) of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Col 1:3-8 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love (agape) you have for all God’s people— 5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. 7You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8and who also told us of your love (agape) in the Spirit.

John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 10:25-30, Rom 4:7, Rom 8:38-39, 1 Cor 15:12-19, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30, Heb 6:18-19, Heb 9:12, Heb 10:11-14, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 5:9-14, 2 John 1:2.
 

[Heb 13:8]

Heb 6:4-6 refers to maturity in Christ (and has nothing to do with losing salvation). God bless you.

Heb 5:11-14 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1-12 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers - Those who were once enlightened.—This metaphor is introduced again in Hebrews 10:32; neither there nor here does the context contain any notice or expansion of the figure. In that passage, however, it is applied generally to all who are addressed, and includes everything that was involved in the reception of the Christian faith. This inclusive application of the term (familiar from prophecy, from our Lord’s own words, from Apostolic usage; see Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:18; 1Peter 2:9) throws light on the construction of the verse before us. As the words stand in the Authorised version, “enlightened” is but the first term of a series; but it is far more probable that the clauses which follow should be regarded as explanatory of the enlightenment itself: “. . . those who were once enlightened, having both tasted . . . and been made partakers . . . and tasted . . .”

Matthew Poole's Commentary - And have tasted of the heavenly gift; an act of sense in the body, put metaphorically for an act of the mind. Tasting in the soul, is an apprehension and reception by it, and but merely such, and no more; a taste, and not a digestion, of Christ and his benefits as revealed to them in the gospel, John 4:39,40, followed with the superficial relishes of their joy and peace on their temporary believing in them, as it was with the stony ground, Matthew 13:20. A sinner enlightened so as to see Christ and the glorious promises made to believers in him, it being agreeable to his natural principles, and being not much humbled, runs away with them with joy, having good desires and affections, but a stony heart still: such was Herod, Mark 6:20.

Meyer's NT Commentary - γευσαμένους τε τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου] and have tasted the heavenly gift. γεύεσθαί τινος, to taste or receive a savour of a thing, figurative indication of perception by one’s own experience. See on Hebrews 2:9. The construction of the verb with the genitive (instead of being with the accusative, as Hebrews 6:5) does not justify us, with many strict Reformed expositors, in finding a mere “gustare extremis labris” in the expression. Besides, such an interpretation would be in conflict with the design of the writer, since it cannot be within his intention to represent the culpability of the persons in question as small; he must, on the contrary, aim at bringing out the same in all its magnitude.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges - 5. and have tasted the good word of God] Rather, “that the word of God is good.” The verb “taste,” which in the previous verse is constructed with the genitive (as in classical Greek), is here followed by an accusative, as is more common in Hellenistic Greek. It is difficult to establish any difference in meaning between the constructions, though the latter may imply something which is more habitual—“feeding on.” But possibly the accusative is only used to avoid any entanglement with the genitive “of God” which follows it. There is however no excuse for the attempt of Calvin and others, in the interests of their dogmatic bias, to make “taste of” mean only “have an inkling of” without any deep or real participation; and to make the preciousness of the “word of God” in this place only imply its contrast to the rigour of the Mosaic Law. The metaphor means “to partake of,” and “enjoy,” as in Philo, who speaks of one “who has quaffed much pure wine of God’s benevolent power, and banqueted upon sacred words and doctrines” (De proem. et poen. Opp. i. 428). Philo also speaks of the utterance (rhema) of God, and God, and of its nourishing the soul like manna (Opp. i. 120, 564). The references to Philo are always to Mangey’s edition. The names of the special tracts and chapters may be found in my Early Days of Christianity, 11. 541–543, and passim.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh - Our translators have rendered this as if the Greek were - ἀνασταυροῦντας πάλιν anastaurountas palin - "crucify again," and so it is rendered by Chrysostom, by Tyndale, Coverdale, Beza, Luther, and others. But this is not properly the meaning of the Greek. The word ἀνασταυρόω anastauroō - is an "intensive" word, and is employed instead of the usual word "to crucify" only to denote "emphasis." It means that such an act of apostasy would be equivalent to crucifying him in an aggravated manner. Of course this is to be taken "figuratively." It could not be literally true that they would thus crucify the Redeemer. The meaning is, that their conduct would be "as if" they had crucified him; it would bear a strong resemblance to the act by which the Lord Jesus was publicly rejected and condemned to die. The act of crucifying the Son of God was the great crime which outpeers any other deed of human guilt. Yet the apostle says that should they who had been true Christians fall away and reject him, they would be guilty of a similar crime. It would be a public and solemn act of rejecting him. It would show that if they had been there they would have joined in the cry "crucify him, crucify him." The "intensity and aggravation" of such a crime perhaps the apostle meant to indicate by the intensive or emphatic ἀνὰ ana in the word ἀνασταυροῦντας anastaurountas. Such an act would render their salvation impossible, because:

[simplejeff]

37 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall..

trouble 
hardship  
persecution  
famine 
nakedness  
danger 
sword?

Neither.. 

death 
life
angels 
demons
present 
future
any powers
height 
depth
nor anything else in all creation

Who

separated

the

sons

of

disobedience

that

get

tossed

in

the

lake

of

fire

from

not

just

God's

Love,

but

from

Salvation

also

?

[Heb 13:8]

12 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Who

separated

the

sons

of

disobedience

that

get

tossed

in

the

lake

of

fire

from

not

just

God's

Love,

but

from

Salvation

also

?

Hi Jeff, the author here is comparing the old nature (unbelievers) with the new nature (believers in Christ).

Eph 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless.

[TickledPinkinChristWoot!]

When we're told in Gods word that we are not saved by our own works so that none shall boast, and that no one comes to Jesus but that the father calls them, how is it that by grace we are saved by an eternal God that always knew we would be, and yet it is thought we can reject that grace of our own choice and not be a Christian after all? 

 

God began it all, caused it all to happen, called whom he would to his son, and yet we, who Jesus said will forever be in his hand and no one can removed us from there, can exercise our will and leave the hand that God foreknew we would enter in before this world came to be? 
Would that be saying then that our will is more able than God's knowing that willed us to come to his son? 
This is deeply concerning to read there's a chance we are not always saved.