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The Quran and the Bible -- revelations of God - PART 1/2

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learning boy    14

:bismillah:

Salam to all brothers/sisters.

DISCLAIMER: Due to advice by a member and towards the respect of this forums : THIS POST IS NO WAY HERE TO PROSELYTIZE. I know my place in this forums and I will not have the authority to sway the minds of the possible Christian viewers. God will want the pious on His path.

During a chat room discussion, the topic of the Quran and Bible was brought up, specifically the theory of alteration towards the Bible scripture we now have on our desks and bookcases (by me). I am not a scholar in this field nor do I have educational degrees or doctorates-- I am a laymen looking for an academic discussion and I feel like this is an important topic, especially for me.

Firstly, I will give a personal introduction and the explanation of misconceptions on the relationship of the Quran and Bible, which also include excerpts of a friends idea (who labels himself Christian):
 

We seem to spend a lot of time noticing and studying the differences in the Quran and Bible, and not much time looking at their similarities. A personal opinion and my friend's opinion is that the Quran was meant to fill in the blanks and correct faulty doctrines derived from the Bible, but not actually in the Bible. 

The Injeel (arabic word for Gospel or bible, literally translated as the `Good News`) is mentioned 9 times in the Quran but it is never actually called a book, though the belief is that Jesus was given a book, and also that there is no mention in the Bible (NT) of what would have been a very sacred book.

As John explains in John 1, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Then the word became flesh. Our studies tend to make me believe that the Word, that was with God was sent by God to indwell Jesus and would already have the Injeel. (The Injeel could also mean the revelation given to all prophets). If you went to check Genesis you will notice that "the Word" played a much larger and active role than book could.

In Islam we believe Muhammed also gained the 'Injeel', or revelation, from Gabriel, Gabriel also being a very big part in biblical history. That being the Quran.

Now when it comes to the compilation of the Quran and Bible, they both were not written by one man. If you want to take the literal terms of written, markings on the surface of a paper with a writing utensil, then you can say that many people wrote the Quran as well as the bible. Anyways, their compilation is also similar in some ways. There was a point in time where many people had verses and snippits of the Quran, as well as the Bible, and one finally needed to bring these verses into one book. The Islamic belief is that the 3rd Caliph, Caliph Uthman, was given this responsibility to say what was in the Book, that being the Quran, and what should be burned. The Shia Islamic belief says that, although the Caliph Uthman may have written the codex of the Quran, the entire Quran was completed and compiled by Imam Ali (as), that being the grandson of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). 

For the bible however, it was the council of Nicea, who determined what should be in the book, and what should be burned.

However, as with the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Prophet Jesus (pbuh) never wrote a thing. Our earliest records show that it could have been Matthew to be the first to write. The disciples then wrote Gospels which were later on in time compiled and attributed to them.

Therefore regardless of what it might have taken to get the scriptures the way it is in the present day, we can say that all the books have been written and compiled by humans, regardless of how pious they were as they were also fallible

one saying that keeps coming back from the OT to NT however is " I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts". So I think that the Disciples were as humanly and possibly accurate as they could ever have been with the records. There are tiny differences between the Gospels as they were written (from the disciples), but consider that they were also recorded from their different views as well. One Disciple might have seen what another did not, and then one would suggest that one or the other disciple must be wrong ( more on this later or on a different post)

Although this next observation is also the excerpt of my friend, who helped a lot in this entire context which is mostly in his and our shared opinions, but where I may have a differences of this opinion. He said that' The same is witnessed between the rememberers, and transmitters, and the writings of the various versions of the Quran. It's not that big of a deal, also knowing that it was only human. Muhammed had the same revelation as Jesus written in his heart. That is how he was able to recite it to the rememberers.' I agree with this excerpt to an extent. In the Quran there are many verses states that this book, The Quran, is in no way subject of a change, fault, or difference then the revelation of Muhammed.


I say this because we have the verse:

(We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].) (Al-Hijr 15:9)

which tells us God guards the Quran from any deviancy or malice, or verses like:

“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’” (Quran 17:88)

and even easier:

“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:13)

which has to do with the ones who claim that Muhammed wrote the Quran. And closes it with this verse:

“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

 Even during that peak of literacy, there was no challenger who was able to successfully attempt this (also until this day!). This may not help you believe that the Quran is unchangeable, but it does at least help you believe that the Quran is a revelation of God, which is the revelation of Jesus.

So we can say that the closest you will see to the revelation given to Jesus is what was quoted by the Disciples, and with many of the Bibles we now have, it is written in a red colour. The rest of the Gospels written were the life and times living with Jesus during ministry.

The harder part is that a little shortly after the compilation of the OT and NT, there were persuasive men who made god laws which hurt the original text possibly without changing the words, and divided the true religion into a very large amount of sects. If you tried to read all scriptures without bias of their doctrines you would find that the majority of what people may hold on to as 'contradictions' are just misrepresentations made by those who wished to divide us.

God has one message for mankind and It is imperative to believe that He gave it to every prophet the same. Demographics may have a tiny role in the variations of the message, but it's the work of men (not the prophets) which has us so divided.

Surprisingly, this part is also an opinion my Christian friend holds himself, which is that : " I find it interesting that the Quran clearly states that it confirms the past scriptures in religion, yet men say no no no, it means the 'past PAST scripture, which are obscure and unattainable. Makes me ask them if in that case was Gabriel given to talk nonsensical on about stuff that could be no use to us? It's like looking for a book that Jesus (pbuh) might have carried. It keeps us chasing aimlessly and missing the real message " which I find extremely interesting. It makes me think that it could be the mere interpretation of the NT bible which people have have deviated onto, other then the interpretation our forefathers wanted it to be like. However this is just a thought and will require much studying and pondering to conclude with.

One must also understand that the Quran helps with this idea even more. For example, you have this verse of the Quran:

"O People of the Book! Do not exceed the bounds in your religion, and do not attribute anything to Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only an apostle of Allah, and His Word that He cast toward Mary and a spirit from Him. So have faith in Allah and His apostles, and do not say, ‘[God is] a trinity.’ Relinquish [such a creed]! That is better for you. Allah is but the One God. He is far too immaculate to have any son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah suffices as trustee." (Quran 4:171)

which show that there is no idea of the Trinity and believing in it is not the way of God. However you have this verse:

"Indeed the faithful, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabaeans ---those of them who have faith in Allah and the Last Day and act righteously--- they shall have their reward near their Lord, and they will have no fear, nor will they grieve." (Quran 2:62)

Why is God telling us that those faithful of the Jews and Christians , under the criteria of believing in God and the Last day and act righteously (good works), will have a place in paradise? The Quran and God is actually accepting those of the People of the Book under these criteria! (The People of the Book are those of whom were given scripture and revelation, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and arguably the sabaeans which one must study more to thereby include)

This again was a personal opinion of my friend and I. Why I like this so much is that my friend proudly considers himself Christian. He does not fast nor pray nor recite the testimony of Islam, yet he has this belief of men who deviated the text of the bible and created man-made 'god laws' in which everyone mostly deviated to. In this sense I believe he was speaking about the very major topics like the Trinity and the Atonement of Christ.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is only PART ONE of TWO of this series. It is evident that the question probed on the chat room, this being directed towards those who witnessed it, may not exactly have been answered. This is why in part TWO of TWO of this series, I will go into deep analysis of why Islam believes in the possible alteration of the Bible and different theories and opinions, with the help and excerpts of perhaps one of the biggest and most prominent scholars of Shia Islam and the biggest exegetic of Quran interpretation, Allama Muhammad Hussain Tabatabai , of whom I will gather excerpts of how we will analzye verses of the Quran that may help with this theory. (One is free to have a quick read on Allama Tabatabai, and since we will be mostly focusing on CHAPTER 5 VERSE 41-50, you may give yourself the chance to read about these verses in advance)

 

END DISCLAIMER: I would foremost like to apologize if any viewer at all caught any offense to the words portrayed on this post. It is in no way the intention and I hope no one would feel like it is. I would however like to reiterate that this is an academic discussion and I am looking forward for other opinions and readings by the Christian faith. More importantly, I hope it is not too much to ask that we should focus our answers and possible refutations on the matters portrayed here. I do not want to get into a different topic, for example: like controversy surrounding a possible Quran verse, because that is meant for it's own position in discussion and if very desperate, a viewer can PM me personally and I will be able to help on this topic. The same way Quran verses can get misinterpreted and ripped out of it's original meaning, the Bible can too. Hint, what do you think ISIS is running their ideology on?

Thank you.
 

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other one    24,677

the koran says that Allah is one and he has no son.....   that's as far as you need to go concerning the Koran....   it is antichrist.

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learning boy    14
On 8/3/2016 at 4:58 PM, other one said:

the koran says that Allah is one and he has no son.....   that's as far as you need to go concerning the Koran....   it is antichrist.

I disagree.

The Quran on many occasions actually praises Christ and adheres to his holiness and reverence. 

For example:

“When the angels said: ‘O Mary! Surely God gives thee good news of a word from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, Son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter, and of those who are highly accepted by God.’” 3:45

clearly adhering of him being highly accepted by God, and him being 'good news'. 

And when the angels said: ‘O Mary! Certainly God has chosen thee and made thee pure and has preferred thee above the women of all nations. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).’” 3:42-43

Hear is clear speech where God has placed our Mother Mary on a very high pedestal, revering her greatness and being of pure heart. The mother of our Jesus Christ (pbuh).

“…and He (God) will make him (Jesus) a messenger to the children of Israel (saying): ‘I have come to you with a sign from your Lord that I fashion for you, out of clay, the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by permission of God. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead by permission of God. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store in your houses. Lo! Herein verily is a sign for you, if ye are to be believers.’” 3:49

All are miracles of Jesus to the people, miracles that were prescribed by God through his Will. We will wholeheartedly agree on this.

If you ask me, the Quran loves Jesus Christ!

Edited by learning boy
made for a better response--

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Ezra    9,814
On 8/3/2016 at 9:58 PM, learning boy said:

If you ask me, the Quran loves Jesus Christ!

As long as He is subordinate to Mohammad and Allah.  The truth is the exact opposite.

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kwikphilly    26,300

Blessings to you learning boy

    I have always given you the benefit of the doubt,you have never given us any reason to question your sincerity  and I must add ,you have always been very polite & respectful....

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We seem to spend a lot of time noticing and studying the differences in the Quran and Bible, and not much time looking at their similarities. A personal opinion and my friend's opinion is that the Quran was meant to fill in the blanks and correct faulty doctrines derived from the Bible, but not actually in the Bible. 

Now,when I read this statement,that not only you but a so called "Christian" friend of yours makes it makes your motives for posting seem questionable,to me....

The quran DOES NOT "fill in the blanks"....what it does do is twist & contort Gods Word,when you post so irreverently to my God Almighty,Lord Jesus Christ....well,I won't tolerate it

   What is the purpose of posting quote after quote after quote from muhammeds book? In comparison to the Inspired Word of God,seriously? This is a Christian Ministry,we are not here to promote these falsehoods,we are here to talk about our Lord & Savior Christ Jesus WHO is GOD,to anyone who wants to "hear"

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learning boy    14
5 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings to you learning boy

    I have always given you the benefit of the doubt,you have never given us any reason to question your sincerity  and I must add ,you have always been very polite & respectful....

Now,when I read this statement,that not only you but a so called "Christian" friend of yours makes it makes your motives for posting seem questionable,to me....

The quran DOES NOT "fill in the blanks"....what it does do is twist & contort Gods Word,when you post so irreverently to my God Almighty,Lord Jesus Christ....well,I won't tolerate it

   What is the purpose of posting quote after quote after quote from muhammeds book? In comparison to the Inspired Word of God,seriously? This is a Christian Ministry,we are not here to promote these falsehoods,we are here to talk about our Lord & Savior Christ Jesus WHO is GOD,to anyone who wants to "hear"

I understand where you are coming from, but this is where our problems occur kwik. Your entire comment was filled with pure emotion, and while that is not at all any problem, it does make it a little different when the entire subject was about having an academic discussion. I apologize for the offense and I made it clear it wasn't my intention to make anyone upset. This post wasn't even here to teach anything, rather it was to shed a more truthful light on the Bible and the Quran.

You say " The quran DOES NOT "fill in the blanks"....what it does do is twist & contort Gods Word,when you post so irreverently to my God Almighty,Lord Jesus Christ....well,I won't tolerate it ". The Quran does not contort God's words and it is surprising you would say that. All three books of scripture are meant for the exact same reason (the same reason why I have no place call on the corruption of the Bible and Torah). Keep in mind that the statement I wrote (about the faulty doctrines) actually is based on a very logical and reasonable basis. By that I mean it's definitely arguable to show how this can be a possiblity. (Hint: My friend explained it as faulty doctrines derived from the Bible, but not actually IN the bible. Not at all promoting the corruption of the Bible nor insulting, but rather trying to show the truth of the beautiful Bible it is and the message it had to all readers.). It was promoted here in order we speak about it. I am Glad you brought that statement up, but I quickly realized you were not here tell otherwise, rather you thought I was insulting the Bible (which is not at all what I did), and you thought it would have been alright to insult the Quran, based on an emotional standpoint, which I will forgive you for because I understand why you might feel like this.

You say I post irreverently to Jesus Christ, but I actually did the exact opposite. Do not blame me for finding clarify in the Quran because of it's explicit message of the submission to God, and the reverence to his Prophets. I find the implicity of the Bible to be very difficult in understanding our God and it is the exact reason why despite my time in this very nice place, I still have not found a breakthrough or exposure to the two major doctrines of Christianity : The Trinity and the Atonement of Christ. (Which is extremely imperative in Christianity because our modern Christianity's ENTIRE faith is based on these two doctrines. Apparently, I can stay away from sin and have Good acts, revere Jesus and follow his teachings, but If I even so dare as doubt the atonement of Jesus then I will be smited to Hell. You can clearly see where I am having problems). So we are left with two possible reasons:

1. For my sake, that I am actually on a path that God wanted me on, and thereby He will not let me believe in doctrines that were not from Him.
2. For your sake, that Jesus despises me so much that despite the amount of seeking I do, he will keep me blind from the truth, for whatever reason he has about myself, and as much as I promote his holiness and revere him I still have him turned against me.

You say: " What is the purpose of posting quote after quote after quote from muhammeds book? ".

The entire point was to show that it WASN'T Muhammed's book, but God's book, called the Quran. The same God who gave the Torah to Moses (pbuh) and the Gospels to Jesus (pbuh). The Torah is not the book of Moses and the Gospels are not the book of Jesus, they are all books from God. ( side note: I find it kind of baseless that one would call it Muhammed's book, where: 1) I showed in the above verse of Quran 11:13 that this clearly attesting that it is NOT and 2) If Muhammed wrote it, I wonder why he mentions Jesus 5x more then himself and mentions Moses 25x more then himself.. )
 

5 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

This is a Christian Ministry,we are not here to promote these falsehoods,we are here to talk about our Lord & Savior Christ Jesus WHO is GOD,to anyone who wants to "hear"

If you find that a question like this in the outer court has no reason to be here, then why do we have a forums for seekers anyways? (If this is a little bit confusing, maybe we should support this forums with an " INTER-FAITH DISCUSSION" section? Who knows, it could be very beneficial. I've seen many other forums with it.) I know the post wasn't worded into a question, but the entire thing really is just a big fat question. I want to see what the Christian faith says about the statements I made (academically and respectfully. If this forums does not promote inter-faith discussions, how would a seeker find truth?) This entire post was never meant to be like " Oh I'm gonna stump them with this" but it was meant more on the lines of " I wonder what the mass of the Christian faith may say on this particular subject in order to understand their point of view and gain a better understanding of their idea or thoughts of the Bible and teachings TOWARD the Quran, and maybe clear out some misconceptions. "

I'm sorry you felt like this was offensive to you, because you are by far the most respectful person ( and one of the only people ) who actually bothers to contribute to any of my posts. If you feel suspicious towards me then that is how you feel.

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OakWood    8,000

THE Q'URAN IS NOT FROM GOD.

It does not fill in any blanks.... it is from Satan. Pure and simple facts that cannot be refuted.

The Q'uran denies the divinity of Christ, making him a mere prophet instead of the Son of God. It denies his death and resurrection which is the only route to salvation... by denying the crucifixion Satan is leading Muslims to damnation.

The books of the Bible were completed around five hundred years before the false prophet Mohammed devised his filthy blasphemous cult.

The Bible warns us of those who wish to change the Gospel. Mohammed introduced a new and false gospel -  yet the word of God does not change.

The Bible warns us of false prophets - Mohammed was an example of such.

Jesus did not tell us that other Messiahs would come after him in fact Jesus was the last and only messiah, yet Mohammed declared himself to be a greater prophet than Jesus - THIS IS BLASPHEMY!

Satan was defeated on the cross so he devised a new religion to deny the cross. Islam is that religion. It shares many similarities with true scripture, such is the power of the lie. The best lies always contain some truth to make them believable. Satan never denies Jesus, he just hijacks the name and twists it to create a false Jesus who has no divinity and no power of salvation. Satan always claims to respect Jesus yet he always denies the death and resurrection. This is typical of the Father of lies.

The Bible tells us to beware of false prophets and that we shall know them by their fruits. Mohammed's fruits were war, slavery, plunder, rape and terrorism. Mohammed was an evil man. The legacy of terrorism, misogyny and war lives on today!

Muslim need to reject Islam completely and turn to Jesus - the true Jesus, not the false Jesus of the Q'uran.

I have no misconceptions about the Q'uran. I studied  Islam for years. I know the Q'uran and the major Hadiths. I am aware of the concept of taqiyya too. 

If you want to challenge me about the Q'uran then you are welcome to do so,but I warn you, I know every Muslim trick of deceit that there is.

Islam is sheer evil - PERIOD!

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kwikphilly    26,300

Blessings to you learning boy

   Okay,the first thing we need to make very clear is that "emotion" is not part of the equation & please don't make accusations that are simply not fact,I am not in the least "upset".....yes,I am questioning your agenda and the way you are writing makes me wonder if you have ulterior motives .....Now,understand that I have not accused you of anything except"irreverence".....God Almighty is the Creator of the universe,of all MEN including mohammed and you are trying to put this so called"prophets" words on the same level as Jehovah,the GREAT I AM,the ONE TRUE LIVING GOD.....that is not going to be tolerated by me,not tolerating irreverence is not being emotional or upset.....You needn't say"I forgive you",I have said nothing that is not the Truth nor do I have anything against you.....usually when a person says"I forgive you" when the person they are saying it to has done nothing against them it is a very passive aggressive way of alluding to the readers that they themselves are "kind" & "loving".....it is the same(to me) as when someone must get "the last word" in when they are angry & they tell the person they are mad at"God Bless you" before they storm off the computer........I don't pretend to be anything I'm not & I say exactly what I mean to say so I don't play word games......Now that all that is said I will move on.....I do hope you are clear on my position,I am very concerned for your Eternity and I know that Jesus loves you and has not yet instructed me to :kick the dust off my feet".....my HOPE it in Christ that your heart will be Convicted to Receive Gods Word.......

    I really could not go over your reply ,I read it once and heard a lot of subtle insinuations to say that the Word of God is not inerrant,infallible,clear,concise & credible -this leads me to believe you want to promote reading the quran to our readers,distracting them from reading the Word of God...

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 Do not blame me for finding clarify in the Quran because of it's explicit message of the submission to God, and the reverence to his Prophets. I find the implicity of the Bible to be very difficult in understanding our God and it is the exact reason why despite my time in this very nice place

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The entire point was to show that it WASN'T Muhammed's book, but God's book, called the Quran

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shed a more truthful light on the Bible and the Quran.

A "truthful light".....God is the Light of the world,you cannot understand what He Says because the quran has not the Light of God in any of it,it is a book written by a man,he claims he saw what he thought was an angel(?) and he has deceived many followers to this very day because of strong delusion,confusion is not of God,it is not any wonder why you are so confused......

I have never spoken against your faith or your quran until this point,I am never going to sit here & allow the introduction to any false doctrine to the people who are seeking God Almighty,Faith comes by hearing,hearing the Word of God

  We do not have an "Inter Faith Forum" in the Seekers Lounge(Outer Court) simply because we ARE a Christian Ministry and we are not here to discuss other religions & compare 

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 better understanding of their idea or thoughts of the Bible and teachings TOWARD the Quran, and maybe clear out some misconceptions. 

We don't need to defend God,His Word,Christianity......we point to Jesus,He needs no defense,He is God......no one can understand (the Bible)by reason,logic,academics or intellect alone ,we(Indwelled) have Understanding because we have a Relationship in Christ Jesus,it is by FAITH    First comes"Faith" then comes Wisdom & Understanding........no one can come to Faith in the knowledge of WHO Jesus IS except through the Living Word,not "a book"

 I truly desire Peace,Comfort,Joy & the Grace of God through Jesus Christ,our Lord & Savior-FOR YOU

                                                                                                                                                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

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Behold    731

The messiah of the Islamic religion...(Mahdi).....Is the Christian "Anti-Christ".

 

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RustyAngeL    10,997

As my sister Kwik said, the Bible has nothing that needs to filled in.

It the without error, and perfect.  

In Revelation God makes it very clear, anyone adding to this Bible the plagues of this book will be added to you and if you take from the Bible your name will be taken out of the Book of Life.  

You cannot follow two masters, you are either for Jesus or you are against Him, He said that Himself, and there is no emotion being spoken here just truth.

Blessings, RustyAngeL

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