Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Seeing that this thread is possibly about ti be resurrected, let me point out that the original post in the thread, spells out the purpose, and has specific parameters in mind. I suggest, that those who participate (if any), read the original post and then stick to those guildlines. The idea is specically about what the Bible says about certain aspects of eschatological theory.

It is not about wild speculations, and presumtion not warranted by scripture itself. Please keep this in mind when you post as post that go off topic, may end up being deleted. There are plenty of threads where anyone can make arguments for their pet theories, this one is an opportunity to show from scripture, why those theories should be believed. Again I stress, read the OP, perhaps print in on a shett of paper and have it in front of you to refer to, to check if you are keeping the topic in mind.

Similarly, anyone who chooses to disagree with another's opinion, should also keep in mind, what the scripture says. The OP is at:

Let us get something straight to start with we have to use our inteligence. The absence of proof is not the proof of absence. Paul says something that is Key in 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,......Key word here is MYSTERY, The Greek word musterion (3466) is used here and we have to delve into its meaning(s). musterion {moos-tay'-ree-on} from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth).......1) hidden thing, secret, mystery.......1b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding...........1c1) secret will...........From a derivative of μύω [[muo]] (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery".  

So let us, like intelligent gentlemen agree that Paul is basically saying here, I tell you a MYSTERY, or something that is a Secret by God's Silence, Gods Secret will, something that God has never really revealed before to Israel at Paul's time, or until Paul's time, because this Rapture basically has nothing to do with Israel. But let us paste this passage and discuss it. 

 

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

{{  Notice Paul here is speaking about the corrupt earthly bodies not being able to enter into Heaven, then he says, I show you a MYSTERY (Something God has not spoken of before thus its a SECRET) we shall not all die (sleep in the grave) before the Rapture but we (those alive at the Rapture/Harpazo) will be changed in the Twinkling of an Eye or in an instant, at the last trump (I will delve into the Last Trump later on) because the trump will sound the Dead will arise from their graves, they will be raised incorruptible, BUT WE have to be changed because we are still in our sinful (corruptible) bodies so we must shed our SINFUL BODIES before we go to Heaven, if we were going to stay on earth, why would we have to put on incorruptible bodies ? We have to change because we are no doubt headed for Heaven where corruptible bodies can not travel to, notice the first sentence, FLESH AND BLOOD can not enter Heaven, we are headed to Heaven here, there is no doubt about that. We are not headed to meet Jesus and come back down to earth to fight the Anti-Christ and his minions.  Remember Jesus telling Mary, DON'T TOUCHE ME for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. Jesus had not took the offering unto God yet, any human touching him would have defiled the offering. We must shed our sinful bodies here because we are headed to Heaven. }} 

 

Now we will go to the chapter that proves there HAS TO BE A RAPTURE/HARPAZO before the Second Coming of Jesus to save Israel on Mt. Zion. It leaves no doubt whatsoever. Reading Revelation chapter 19 in full, tells the whole story, all people have to do is leave their biases at the door. Lets go through it line by line, I usually do not like pasting scriptures, but you guys said lets keep it scriptural, so as I explained, God has kept the Rapture/Harpazo a secret for the most part, but all secrets are not secrets if you know what to look for. Just like Parables are secrets to the world, but not to us. So lets read the Chapter that proves there is a DEPARTING OF THE CHURCH, to be with Jesus while the Anti-Christ, his Kings and their Armies plus the Wicked of the Earth are still on the Earth. Rev. 19 is happening at the same time that Rev. 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15 and 16 is happening. Rev. 17 ans 18 are not real time events. They are the retelling of events that have already happened. 

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

{{ Revelation 19 starts by saying there are MUCH PEOPLE IN HEAVEN !! }}

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (CHURCH) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

{{ The Marriage of the Church to the Lamb is at hand, and we know these are the SAINTS of God in Heaven, for verse 8 says these are the Saints of God, dressed in White Linen. }}

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

{{ So John falls at the feet to worship this "man" and he tells John, NO DON'T DO IT, I am just your brother in Christ Jesus, nothing more or nothing less, worship Jesus only !! }}

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

{{ Jesus is on the "Conquering White Horse" he is set to go forth and conquer, after the marriage to the Lamb, and the Army that followed him on White Horses were dressed in Fine White Linen, which means they are Saints, see Verse 8, the Fine White Linen is the Righteousness of the Saints !! So the Church is following Jesus into battle, after the Marriage of the Church unto the Lamb. }}

 

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, (Holy Spirit) that with it he should smite the nations: (Still Around after the Marriage)  and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

{{ This above is the Seventh Vial, notice the winepress of the fierceness of the Wrath of the Almighty God mentioned here. That is also mentioned in Rev. 16. The battle above is also mentioned in Rev. 16, Jesus lands on Mt. Zion and fights the Nations of the Earth or Babylon, they fall to Jesus' armies and are defeated by the Holy Spirit, it is VERY CLEAR reading Rev. chapter 19 that we the Church, the Saints in White Linen, come back to Earth on White horses, with Jesus, to fight the Anti-Christ, his Kings, their Armies and all the wicked unrepentant people of the World, after being Married to the Lamb in Heaven. NOW LEAVE YOUR BIASES AT THE DOOR, this is as clear as day. There is no wiggle room for any other interpretation. }}

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

{{ So after the Saints are in Heaven DO YOU NOTICE THIS ? The Beast, Kings and their Armies are STILL ON EARTH !! The Battle of Armageddon happens after the Church Marries the Lamb in Heaven. There can be NO EXPLANATION for this other than the Church is Raptured/Harpazoed to Heaven just like 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 says, While the REST OF MANKIND remains on Earth. The Sixth Vial of Rev. 16 is the Euphrates drying up preparing the way for the Kings of the East, the Anti-Christ, False Prophet and Satan sends three evil spirits forth to entice them unto battle. So the European Union basically entices the Muslim Nations to come against Israel, even though the E.U. has already destroyed Islam (imho) these Nations still hate Israel. The the Seventh Vial is poured out, and of course Jesus lands on Mt. Zion with us Saints who came back from Heaven with him, there was a Great Earthquake like never before that divided Jerusalem into three parts, then we go forth to Armageddon no doubt........Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities (Babylon) of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. So as we see, Rev. 16 is Armageddon, Jesus and the Church/Saints come on Conquering White Horses to Destroy the last Vestiges of Evil. Babylon will Fall. }}

 

There is no way around Revelation chapter 19. The Church is in Heaven, Jesus does not meet us on earth, we are Raptured, changed in the Twinkling of an eye on our way to HEAVEN, we Marry the Lamb in Heaven, come back to Earth with Jesus, and then we do Battle with the Anti-Christ, his Kings and their Armies who are trying to destroy Israel/Jerusalem. By this time Israel has REPENTED and turned back unto God by accepting Jesus as their Messiah. They are they Wheat that is Harvested with the Tares into the Fathers Barn. 

 

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Let us get something straight to start with we have to use our inteligence. The absence of proof is not the proof of absence. Paul says something that is Key in 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,......Key word here is MYSTERY, The Greek word musterion (3466) is used here and we have to delve into its meaning(s). musterion {moos-tay'-ree-on} from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth).......1) hidden thing, secret, mystery.......1b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding...........1c1) secret will...........From a derivative of μύω [[muo]] (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery".  

So let us, like intelligent gentlemen agree that Paul is basically saying here, I tell you a MYSTERY, or something that is a Secret by God's Silence, Gods Secret will, something that God has never really revealed before to Israel at Paul's time, or until Paul's time, because this Rapture basically has nothing to do with Israel. But let us paste this passage and discuss it.

Be cautious as to how much faith you put in "intellect."  Godly wisdom is preferable and comes from obedience, from acting on the words of Jesus.  Godly wisdom will give discernment when reality conflicts with the product of our intellect.

Intellect is a characteristic of the natural man.  Some are very intelligent.  Others not so much.  However, all believers have the same capability to be obedient and gain godly wisdom.  It's godly wisdom that will keep us alert and prepared for His return, not intellect.  Otherwise, the lesser intelligent would be at a disadvantage.

Intellect is a source of pride and arrogance.  Godly wisdom is:

• But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.  James 3:17

This isn't to say that we abandon our ability to reason, just a perspective check to make sure the tail isn't wagging the dog.

[Salty]

I don't see how I can be a part of this thread with only following the guidelines presented by the OP, which is limiting into a corner, because the questions asked are of such in search of proof to 'support' .... a Pre-trib Rapture theory, when in actuality no such idea even exists in God's Word.

[Salty]

On 7/20/2014 at 2:49 AM, Guest said:

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

 

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

 

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

 

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

 

 

That is just totally unrealistic.

It's like saying prove that God exists, but only atheists can reply.

 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Be cautious as to how much faith you put in "intellect."  Godly wisdom is preferable and comes from obedience, from acting on the words of Jesus.  Godly wisdom will give discernment when reality conflicts with the product of our intellect.

Intellect is a characteristic of the natural man.  Some are very intelligent.  Others not so much.  However, all believers have the same capability to be obedient and gain godly wisdom.  It's godly wisdom that will keep us alert and prepared for His return, not intellect.  Otherwise, the lesser intelligent would be at a disadvantage.

Intellect is a source of pride and arrogance.  Godly wisdom is:

• But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.  James 3:17

This isn't to say that we abandon our ability to reason, just a perspective check to make sure the tail isn't wagging the dog.

Why would you assume I am not speaking from a "God given wisdom" point of view. I do not trust nor believe anything given me of men, including my own thoughts, until I get the Unction from the Holy Spirit. This is imho., why we have about 10 different things/places that people call Babylon, when the Angel in Rev. 17 tells us the MYSTERY of the Woman and the Beast she rides, IT IS NO MYSTERY, but we listen to men.........and then have our own ideas, when God is saying..........LOOK I AM REVEALING BY MY ANGEL WHO THEY ARE !! Why are you still calling it a MYSTERY !!

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

I don't see how I can be a part of this thread with only following the guidelines presented by the OP, which is limiting into a corner, because the questions asked are of such in search of proof to 'support' .... a Pre-trib Rapture theory, when in actuality no such idea even exists in God's Word.

You are supposed to be on THEIR SIDE, of course the other side can refute the PRE-TRIB believers ideas.....or try to. My post above pretty much should END the Thread. 

[ENOCH2010]

Revelation Man in the scripture you provided mentions the 24 elders, how did they get to heaven?

[Revelation Man]

11 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Revelation Man in the scripture you provided mentions the 24 elders, how did they get to heaven?

All of the Church is there, why wouldn't the elders be there also ? The Saints of Old are all there also. 

[n2thelight]

Simple question.

When is the end?Are there two endings?

 

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

I don't see this verse saying endure till the rapture.Oh my bad, forgot this chapter is not written to the Church.

 

Another question,is the last trump not the 7th,if not where is the 8th?

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Why would you assume I am not speaking from a "God given wisdom" point of view. I do not trust nor believe anything given me of men, including my own thoughts, until I get the Unction from the Holy Spirit. This is imho., why we have about 10 different things/places that people call Babylon, when the Angel in Rev. 17 tells us the MYSTERY of the Woman and the Beast she rides, IT IS NO MYSTERY, but we listen to men.........and then have our own ideas, when God is saying..........LOOK I AM REVEALING BY MY ANGEL WHO THEY ARE !! Why are you still calling it a MYSTERY !!

I made no such assumption, just cautioning against leaning too heavily on intellect.  Someone can understand all mystery and prophecy yet still be unprepared for His return.