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3 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Are the tribulation saints not going to be part of the church?

They will be the 5 Virgins who had no oil or not enough oil in their Lamps. They will be like Israel, who accepted Christ as their Messiah after the Rapture. They must wait until we the Church and Saints of old return with Jesus after the Tribulation. They will not be a part of the Marriage to the Lamb, but because of Gods great Love, they will still have a shot at Heaven, they will probably have to die for Jesus (most), then wait until the Second Coming, they will not be protected like Israel will be, but those Beheaded will serve with Christ for 1000 years. They are judged in Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

The Beheaded are Judged by us Saints who came back with Jesus, and no doubt found as Righteous. Then the BEHEADED Reign with Christ on Earth a 1000 years. 

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2 hours ago, Salty said:

No it isn't. That's a man-made idea dreamed up to try and give support to the false pre-trib rapture theory that began in 1830's Britain by the Irvingites and Brethren movement. The signs of the end Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is for the faithful of His Church. They are the signs of Revelation 6, that's the order of their flow that He was covering, the very last sign being that of His coming at the end of this world. You've been fed men's lies that go against God's Word and just don't know it yet.

Quote

REALLY ? Harpazo is what Paul says would happen to us in the Twinkling of an eye. You do understand that the Latin word we get get Rapture from is rapiemur and has the same meaning as Harpazo right ?

HARPAZO (Rapture, Take, Snatch, Force, Pull, Pluck, Catch, Catch Up, Catch Away) Scriptures

Definition: Harpazo

v.

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

~ from Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

 

In the Greek New Testament, the word harpazo is found a total of 17 times in 13 different verses. Each time harpazo is used this verb refers to a quick or sudden often violently physical “snatching away” or “catching away” of a person, a thing, or an idea. More important is the fact that in 5 of these 17 times harpazo is used in the New Testament harpazo ALWAYS refers to the literal physical (bodily) removal of a faithfully righteous human being from one place to another, or from one sphere of existence to another. The 5 times harpazo is used involving faithfully righteous people are when:

1. Philip is harpazo’d from the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch to a different location miles away (see Acts 8:39, AKJV)

2.  Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven (see 2 Corinthians 12:2, AKJV)

3. Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven; second reference (see 2 Corinthians 12:4, AKJV)

4. Bride of Christ is harpazo’d from the Earth to the clouds to meet Her Groom (Christ Jesus) in the air (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17, AKJV); the understanding here is that the Bride will be taken to Heaven to be with Her Groom

5. Christ Jesus is harpazo’d from Bethany near the Mount of Olives to His Throne in Heaven (see Revelation 12:5; cf. Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9; AKJV)

Each one of the above five supernaturally powerful acts of the Holy Spirit by which literal bodily removals of humans either from one place to another on Earth or from off of this Earth to Heaven proves that the Rapture is a biblically sound doctrine. In fact, the English words Rapture and Raptured actually are derived from the Latin verb rapio(catch up or take away), and rapio is used in the Latin Vulgate Bible (also referred to asThe Vulgate).

The point here is that many of America’s English words, like Rapture and Raptured, and etc., are derived from words found in the Latin Vulgate Bible—the most commonly used translation of the Holy Bible. St Jerome’s late 4th-century A.D. revised Latin translation of the old Latin Biblical Texts became The Vulgate, and The Vulgate was used over 1,000 years before the Protestant Reformation started! In essence, no other Holy Bibletranslation has been used longer than the Latin Vulgate Bible, and that includes the highly promoted Authorized King James Version (AKJV)!

So then, believers who doubt that the idea of a Rapture is in their English translations of the Holy Bible need to understand that it is from the Greek New Testament manuscripts that St. Jerome, scholar/translator, originally renders the Latin rapiemur (the first person plural future passive indicative tense of rapio) from the Greek harpagesometha(the first person plural future passive indicative tense of harpazo). Furthermore, in the English versions of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, rapiemur has been translated from Latin into English as either “we shall be snatched,” or “we shall be grabbed,” or “we shall be carried off,” and so forth. Similarly, harpagesometha has been translated from Greek into English as “we shall be caught up” or “we shall be taken away,” and etc. Moreover, as already mentioned, with every Latin and English translation of harpagesometha the meaning of this Greek verb always connotes a catching or taking that will be a violent, sudden event!

The point to this brief grammar lesson is that, as far as the meaning and tense of the Latin word rapiemur are concerned, this word is in agreement with the Greek wordharpagesometha, since rapiemur and harpagesometha are the same tense and they both mean the same thing—a sudden and physical withdrawal; a seizing; a snatching, and so forth. So then, there can be no denying that English words like rapt, raptly, raptness, rapture, raptured, rapturous, rapturously, rapturousness, raptor, and so on, undisputedly are derived from rapio’s verb forms such as rapere, rapui, raptus,rapiemur, rapturo, and etc. Moreover, since rapio’s verb forms are accurate translations of the Greek harpazo’s verb forms, then it doesn’t matter if someone uses the AKJV’s “caught away” or “caught up” or if he/she uses the word “raptured,” or “snatched away,” or “taken up,” or “plucked,” or “taken by force,” and so forth, because they all mean the same thing—a very sudden nonconsensual seizure.

Thus, language in this case shouldn’t be used as a barrier to understanding a concept that most definitely is found in the Word of God—that concept being the Rapture. Put differently, the Greek, Latin, and English words used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 all describe exactly how quickly the living Bride of Christ’s fleshly Body will be removed from this Earth and how fast that fleshly Body will be changed into a spirit Body, so it doesn’t matter if one particular English word is or isn’t in the English version of the Holy Biblesomeone is using. What should matter most is whether the concept of a Rapture is in the Word of God. Based on the words used in the ORIGINAL language of the New Testament, which is Greek, the concept of a Rapture most definitely is in the Word of God.

The ole 1830's story is DEBUNKED. 

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2 hours ago, Salty said:

Don't say that's only about the unbelieving Jews who turn to Christ during the trib either, because these signs Jesus gave here are the signs He gave in His Revelation through John to... the seven Churches.

 

The Churches are that are mentioned in Revelation, d not go through the Tribulation, every member of those Churches Jesus mentioned are dead by now, those churches we 2000 years ago. That is why Jesus told the Church at Pargamos, I now where you live, where Satan's seat is. The Temple of Zeus was at Pergamos. Look it up, it is now in Berlin, and a replica of it was at Nuremberg, that is where Hitler made many of his crazed speeches from. They transferred it to Berlin in like 1900. 

History lesson on who Zeus was/is....Zeus came from Belios, Belios came from the Babylonoan god Bel, Bal came from the Canaanite god Baal. So Zeus is nothing but Baal. And the Romans has a Temple to Zeus/Jupiter in Pergamos. 

It is about all who come to Christ during the Tribulation, both Jew and Gentile.

The Church is in Heaven however.

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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

REALLY ? Harpazo is what Paul says would happen to us in the Twinkling of an eye. You do understand that the Latin word we get get Rapture from is rapiemur and has the same meaning as Harpazo right ?

HARPAZO (Rapture, Take, Snatch, Force, Pull, Pluck, Catch, Catch Up, Catch Away) Scriptures

Definition: Harpazo

v.

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

~ from Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

 

In the Greek New Testament, the word harpazo is found a total of 17 times in 13 different verses. Each time harpazo is used this verb refers to a quick or sudden often violently physical “snatching away” or “catching away” of a person, a thing, or an idea. More important is the fact that in 5 of these 17 times harpazo is used in the New Testament harpazo ALWAYS refers to the literal physical (bodily) removal of a faithfully righteous human being from one place to another, or from one sphere of existence to another. The 5 times harpazo is used involving faithfully righteous people are when:

1. Philip is harpazo’d from the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch to a different location miles away (see Acts 8:39, AKJV)

2.  Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven (see 2 Corinthians 12:2, AKJV)

3. Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven; second reference (see 2 Corinthians 12:4, AKJV)

4. Bride of Christ is harpazo’d from the Earth to the clouds to meet Her Groom (Christ Jesus) in the air (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17, AKJV); the understanding here is that the Bride will be taken to Heaven to be with Her Groom

5. Christ Jesus is harpazo’d from Bethany near the Mount of Olives to His Throne in Heaven (see Revelation 12:5; cf. Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9; AKJV)

Each one of the above five supernaturally powerful acts of the Holy Spirit by which literal bodily removals of humans either from one place to another on Earth or from off of this Earth to Heaven proves that the Rapture is a biblically sound doctrine. In fact, the English words Rapture and Raptured actually are derived from the Latin verb rapio(catch up or take away), and rapio is used in the Latin Vulgate Bible (also referred to asThe Vulgate).

The point here is that many of America’s English words, like Rapture and Raptured, and etc., are derived from words found in the Latin Vulgate Bible—the most commonly used translation of the Holy Bible. St Jerome’s late 4th-century A.D. revised Latin translation of the old Latin Biblical Texts became The Vulgate, and The Vulgate was used over 1,000 years before the Protestant Reformation started! In essence, no other Holy Bibletranslation has been used longer than the Latin Vulgate Bible, and that includes the highly promoted Authorized King James Version (AKJV)!

So then, believers who doubt that the idea of a Rapture is in their English translations of the Holy Bible need to understand that it is from the Greek New Testament manuscripts that St. Jerome, scholar/translator, originally renders the Latin rapiemur (the first person plural future passive indicative tense of rapio) from the Greek harpagesometha(the first person plural future passive indicative tense of harpazo). Furthermore, in the English versions of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, rapiemur has been translated from Latin into English as either “we shall be snatched,” or “we shall be grabbed,” or “we shall be carried off,” and so forth. Similarly, harpagesometha has been translated from Greek into English as “we shall be caught up” or “we shall be taken away,” and etc. Moreover, as already mentioned, with every Latin and English translation of harpagesometha the meaning of this Greek verb always connotes a catching or taking that will be a violent, sudden event!

The point to this brief grammar lesson is that, as far as the meaning and tense of the Latin word rapiemur are concerned, this word is in agreement with the Greek wordharpagesometha, since rapiemur and harpagesometha are the same tense and they both mean the same thing—a sudden and physical withdrawal; a seizing; a snatching, and so forth. So then, there can be no denying that English words like rapt, raptly, raptness, rapture, raptured, rapturous, rapturously, rapturousness, raptor, and so on, undisputedly are derived from rapio’s verb forms such as rapere, rapui, raptus,rapiemur, rapturo, and etc. Moreover, since rapio’s verb forms are accurate translations of the Greek harpazo’s verb forms, then it doesn’t matter if someone uses the AKJV’s “caught away” or “caught up” or if he/she uses the word “raptured,” or “snatched away,” or “taken up,” or “plucked,” or “taken by force,” and so forth, because they all mean the same thing—a very sudden nonconsensual seizure.

Thus, language in this case shouldn’t be used as a barrier to understanding a concept that most definitely is found in the Word of God—that concept being the Rapture. Put differently, the Greek, Latin, and English words used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 all describe exactly how quickly the living Bride of Christ’s fleshly Body will be removed from this Earth and how fast that fleshly Body will be changed into a spirit Body, so it doesn’t matter if one particular English word is or isn’t in the English version of the Holy Biblesomeone is using. What should matter most is whether the concept of a Rapture is in the Word of God. Based on the words used in the ORIGINAL language of the New Testament, which is Greek, the concept of a Rapture most definitely is in the Word of God.

The ole 1830's story is DEBUNKED. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

Not necessarily. See, first of all, I have a BIG problem with "harpazoo" (I use the double "oo" as an omega and single "o" as an omicron) being translated with "taken UP" or "caught UP." There is NO direction implied in the word harpageesometha found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17! Again, as I've said before, the word "UP" was SUPPLIED by the translators because of the phrases "in clouds" and "into [the] air"; HOWEVER, there is absolutely NOTHING in these verses that suggest that they or we are taken to some place called "Heaven!" The concept of a "Rapture" IS INDEED in the Word of God; however, the belief that the "Rapture" is a transfer to "Heaven" is NOT!

Also be VERY careful about that phrase "spirit Body." That's the same nonsense that the JW's use to suggest that Yeshua` used to be an angel! The term is "spiritual body" or "sooma pneumatikon" in 1 Corinthians 15:44. It is contrasted with "sooma psuchikon" or "natural body," as translated in the KJV. The two adjective forms come from the words "pneuma" and "psuchee" (I also use the double "ee" as an eta and a single "e" as an epsilon), respectively, which are most often translated as "spirit" and "soul." Technically, the translator should have used a coined word "soul-ual body" to complete the contrast, but that didn't happen. However, to understand these words, "spiritual" and "natural," one must go back to Genesis, to the creation of the human being.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

The Hebrew is ...

Breeshiyt 2:7
7 Vayitser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayow nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam lnefesh chayaah:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

This translates to ...

7 Vayitser = 7 And-formed
YHWH = the-LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (direct object follows)
haa'aadaam = the-red-(man)
`aafaar = of-dust/clay/earth/mud
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-(ground)
vayipach = and-He-puffed
b'apaayow = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-life/of-living-things
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-red-(man)
lnefesh = into-an-air-breather
chayaah: = living:

This is essentially how we learned to do CPR! The man-body formed was essentially completely formed but God made it necessary to give it a "kick start" by starting the breathing process manually.

The word "nefesh" (OT:5315) means "an air-breather." It comes from the root verb "naafash" (OT:5314) meaning "to breathe."

This verse was then partially translated into Greek in 1 Corinthians 15:45 where Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

And the Greek is ...

Korinthious A 15:45
45 houtoos kai gegraptai, Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan; ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
UBS Greek New Testament

This lets us know that "psuchee" is the Greek translation of the Hebrew "nefesh." Therefore, "psuchee" also essentially means "an air-breather." (We also learn that "zoosan" was used to translate "chayaah" and means "living.") Thus, this verse translates to ...

45 houtoos = 45 in-this-way
kai = and/also
gegraptai, = it-was-written,
Egeneto = Was-made
ho = the
prootos = first
anthroopos = man
Adam = Adam (the Hebrew word approximated)
eis = into
psucheen = an-air-breather
zoosan; = living;
ho = the
eschatos = last
Adam = Adam (the Hebrew word approximated)
eis = into
pneuma = a-"spirit"
zoo-opoioun. = life-giving.

That gives us an understanding of the word "soul" = "nefesh" = "psuchee" = "an-air-breather." Now, let's do the same for "pneuma":

Let's go back to the account of the Flood in Genesis 7:

Genesis 7:13-22
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV

The word for "breath" in verses 15 and 22 is the Hebrew word "ruwach" (OT:7307). Here's the Hebrew of verse 22:

Breeshiyt 7:22
22 Kol asher nishmat ruwach chayiym b'apaayow mikol asher bechaaraaVaah meetuw:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

This translates to ...

22 Kol = 22 All
asher = who/which/what/that
nishmat = a-puff
ruwach = of-wind/of-breath
chayiym = living
b'apaayow = in-his-nostrils
mikol = from-all
asher = who/which/what/that
bechaaraaVaah = in-[the]-dry-[land]
meetuw: = died:

The word "Kol" here implies all HUMAN life as well as animal life.

The following passages employ a quotation to connect this Hebrew word "ruwach" with the Greek word "pneuma":

Matthew 12:17-21
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit (Greek: to pneuma mou = "the wind/breath of-me") upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
KJV

Isaiah 42:1-4
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit (Hebrew: ruwchiy, ruwach with the 1st-person ending = "my-wind/breath") upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
KJV

Strong's gives these definitions:

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath,  cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, technically speaking, both words refer to a WIND or a BREATH that one can feel; a STRONG blowing or BLAST of air! There are numerous reasons why this might be extended to the concept of a "spirit ... of a rational being" or the "rational soul,"  but these are ANALOGIES or FIGURATIVE USES of the word! In any case, the words are synonymous and used as translations. They can refer to the wind itself, the breath of an individual itself, the words carried by that breath, or the thoughts and attitudes behind those words! So, this is much tougher to interpret.

However, in 1 Corinthians 15, we have MANY contrasts that are used to make the interpretation easier:

The dead are said to be ...

raised in incorruption (as opposed to being "sown in corruption"),
raised in glory (as opposed to being "sown in dishonor"),
raised in power (as opposed to being "sown in weakness"), and
raised a wind-blasting body (as opposed to being "an air-breathing body").

The common theme is STRENGTH! They won't decay; they will be glowing brightly; they will be powerful; and they will be able to blast like the wind! Yeshua` was said to be a "LIFE-GIVING wind," implying that we, bearing His image, will be able to do the same!

But keep in mind that Yeshua` said of His own resurrected body,

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
KJV

He was and is most decidedly NOT a "spirit!"

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12 hours ago, Salty said:

Their view on the saints is corrupted by the Pre-trib Rapture corruptors also, which is why branches of pre-tribbers have sprung up saying the only NT Scripture applicable to the Church are Paul's Epistles. John Darby (1830's who started the pre-trib rapture theory) also thought up Dispensational theory that tries to keep believers of the seed of Israel separate from Christ's Church.

Shalom, Salty.

Yes, you're right. On the other hand, the Dispensational theory (with which I was never comfortable, even when I once believed in the pre-trib rapture theory) had its positive points in the late 19th century and into the 20th century. Up to that point, much of Christendom, which were amillennial in thought, taught heavily the Replacement Theology and that a Jew must first become a Christian before he can return to God. That teaching, strongly held by the Roman Catholic Church at the time, bled over into the Protestant churches, as well. 

The Dispensational theory at least kept the children of Israel separate from the Gentile believers. They had separate prophecies and separate futures that countered the Replacement Theology. And, when the children of Israel and Zionists reformed the state of Israel in 1948, they were ready for its arrival.

Now, it's time to lean the other way! It's not the "Church" into which all believers must flow. It's the Olive Tree of the Messiah Yeshua`, the true commonwealth of Israel, into which the believers become one, the natural branches bearing olives for food and oil as fuel for lamps and cooking and moisturizers for hair and skin, and the oleander branches bearing flowers for beauty, leaves and stems for medicine, and the seeds for dart-tip and arrow-tip poisons!

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15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

REALLY ? Harpazo is what Paul says would happen to us in the Twinkling of an eye. You do understand that the Latin word we get get Rapture from is rapiemur and has the same meaning as Harpazo right ?

HARPAZO (Rapture, Take, Snatch, Force, Pull, Pluck, Catch, Catch Up, Catch Away) Scriptures

Definition: Harpazo

v.

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

~ from Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

....

You have debunked nothing.

Greek harpazo ("caught up") being a subject of HOW one is seized or gathered is irrelevant to the TIMING of when Jesus comes to gather His Church. I don't think you misunderstand those are two separate matters, but that you only used this harpazo route to get off the subject of the TIMING of Jesus gathering His Church, for the harpazo ("caught up") is only about the HOW, not the WHEN.

 

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15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Churches are that are mentioned in Revelation, d not go through the Tribulation, every member of those Churches Jesus mentioned are dead by now, those churches we 2000 years ago. That is why Jesus told the Church at Pargamos, I now where you live, where Satan's seat is. The Temple of Zeus was at Pergamos. Look it up, it is now in Berlin, and a replica of it was at Nuremberg, that is where Hitler made many of his crazed speeches from. They transferred it to Berlin in like 1900. 

History lesson on who Zeus was/is....Zeus came from Belios, Belios came from the Babylonoan god Bel, Bal came from the Canaanite god Baal. So Zeus is nothing but Baal. And the Romans has a Temple to Zeus/Jupiter in Pergamos. 

It is about all who come to Christ during the Tribulation, both Jew and Gentile.

The Church is in Heaven however.

Well, yes, the Church does... go through the tribulation Jesus foretold us of in Matt.24. Now the seven Churches in Asia actual geographically do not all exist anymore, but that was not the purpose of our Lord Jesus to give His seven Messages to those seven Churches only.

Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches represents a heavenly pattern, because the seven candlesticks for the seven Churches resides in Heaven, and ONLY Jesus can remove them out of their place! The seven Messages represent Churches all the way to the end of this world. Jesus had problems with five out of the seven Churches. Whatever Church one is in today, they can look back to those seven Messages, and one of the Messages will fit it.

 

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Salty.

Yes, you're right. On the other hand, the Dispensational theory (with which I was never comfortable, even when I once believed in the pre-trib rapture theory) had its positive points in the late 19th century and into the 20th century. Up to that point, much of Christendom, which were amillennial in thought, taught heavily the Replacement Theology and that a Jew must first become a Christian before he can return to God. That teaching, strongly held by the Roman Catholic Church at the time, bled over into the Protestant churches, as well. 

The Dispensational theory at least kept the children of Israel separate from the Gentile believers. They had separate prophecies and separate futures that countered the Replacement Theology. And, when the children of Israel and Zionists reformed the state of Israel in 1948, they were ready for its arrival.

Now, it's time to lean the other way! It's not the "Church" into which all believers must flow. It's the Olive Tree of the Messiah Yeshua`, the true commonwealth of Israel, into which the believers become one, the natural branches bearing olives for food and oil as fuel for lamps and cooking and moisturizers for hair and skin, and the oleander branches bearing flowers for beauty, leaves and stems for medicine, and the seeds for dart-tip and arrow-tip poisons!

I understand what you're saying, but some of that I deem as a Messianic view which doesn't take into much account certain Bible prophecies specifically to the ten tribes, and not for the house of Judah (or Jews). I'm not ignorant of those Bible prophecies like many here mostly likely are.

 

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5 hours ago, Salty said:

You have debunked nothing.

Greek harpazo ("caught up") being a subject of HOW one is seized or gathered is irrelevant to the TIMING of when Jesus comes to gather His Church. I don't think you misunderstand those are two separate matters, but that you only used this harpazo route to get off the subject of the TIMING of Jesus gathering His Church, for the harpazo ("caught up") is only about the HOW, not the WHEN.

 

I have debunked the dumb theory that the "Rapture" was an invention of people in the 1830's era. The concept is from Paul's own Epistles. Rapture means Rapio which means Harpazo, which came from Paul, all the talk in the world will not change that fact. The timing is very clear to Christians, remember, you are in minority by far of when the Rapture takes place. Christendom understands in the 75-80 percent range exactly when the Rapture happens. 

5 hours ago, Salty said:

Well, yes, the Church does... go through the tribulation Jesus foretold us of in Matt.24. Now the seven Churches in Asia actual geographically do not all exist anymore, but that was not the purpose of our Lord Jesus to give His seven Messages to those seven Churches only.

Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches represents a heavenly pattern, because the seven candlesticks for the seven Churches resides in Heaven, and ONLY Jesus can remove them out of their place! The seven Messages represent Churches all the way to the end of this world. Jesus had problems with five out of the seven Churches. Whatever Church one is in today, they can look back to those seven Messages, and one of the Messages will fit it.

Nope, Jesus was speaking to Churches in Asia Minor, they are not a "Pattern", that is added by men, Jesus was speaking to his Church, trying to get them to grow in the Spirit and shed the flesh, he did this by admonishing and commending them on different points. Seven is the number for Fullness, it means all of the Church should hear the message, just like the Seven Spirits of God only imply that God is everywhere and the Seven eyes imply that God sees everything. 

And the Church does not go through the Tribulation, your wishing it to be true, is not going to make it true. Matthew 24 says no such thing.

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21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have debunked the dumb theory that the "Rapture" was an invention of people in the 1830's era. The concept is from Paul's own Epistles. Rapture means Rapio which means Harpazo, which came from Paul, all the talk in the world will not change that fact. The timing is very clear to Christians, remember, you are in minority by far of when the Rapture takes place. Christendom understands in the 75-80 percent range exactly when the Rapture happens. 

Nope, Jesus was speaking to Churches in Asia Minor, they are not a "Pattern", that is added by men, Jesus was speaking to his Church, trying to get them to grow in the Spirit and shed the flesh, he did this by admonishing and commending them on different points. Seven is the number for Fullness, it means all of the Church should hear the message, just like the Seven Spirits of God only imply that God is everywhere and the Seven eyes imply that God sees everything. 

And the Church does not go through the Tribulation, your wishing it to be true, is not going to make it true. Matthew 24 says no such thing.

Again, you have debunked NOTHING.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory began with the Edward Irving movement in the 1830's and Margaret McDonald having hallucenations on her death bed with the preachers around her bed taking what she said running afoul with it to deceive many Christian brethren. That is where John Nelson Darby got the doctrine from, and he became the main leader in the 1830's movement associated with a group called 'The Brethren'.

Then some in the U.S. like Cyrus Scofield got ahold of the idea and got New York big money to support publishing of his Scofield Reference Bible which pushed the doctrine upon an unsuspecting Christian populace. Scofield was a charlatan, a member of the Club of New York, an association of rich bankers and lawyers in New York city. He had previously stolen money from one of his relatives which got him into trouble with the law, and he claimed to have a Doctorate which he did not have.

For over 1800 years, the Christian Church historically held to a Post-tribulation coming of Jesus and gathering to Him.

There is NO direct statement in God's Word that declares Jesus coming prior to the great tribulation.

There IS ... direct statements in the New Testament that shows Jesus comes only one time, AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints, and that's in Jesus' Own Words.

 

Edited by Salty
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